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Old 17/02/12, 17:13   #81 (permalink)
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Default Re: Help needed: real-world M9 moiré problems

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Well now that depends very much on the lenses being used ...
No, it doesn't.


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My Canon EOS 5D Mk II for example shows significant softening when stopping down from around f/11.
Sure. So does my Konica-Minolta Dynax 7D (APS-C format, 6 MP). It's a consequence of diffraction, and it will happen with any camera with approx. that format size and at around that aperture, no matter what the pixel count may be.


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So more megapixels are simply not going to help ...
If that was true then we all would still use digital cameras with 4 or 5 MP.


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... although they will probably produce more detailed images at say f/8ish—is this useful I wonder.
Hint: Photographs taken at apertures wider than f/11 exist. Some of them even are pretty good actually.


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Fast lenses too are problematic, in as much as their performance wide open is often [...] already showing signs of stress, with images shot wide open lacking real sharpness and showing colour fringing at times. More megapixels won't help here ...
That's a reason to develop better lenses rather than cameras with less resolution. Apart from that—photographs taken at apertures narrower than f/1.4 exist. Some of them even are pretty good actually.


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... but there will be many situations where the greater megapixels are not an advantage.
Sure. But that's no reason to declare high-resolution cameras pointless generally. In terms of image format and pixel count, there's a sweet spot to you somewhere—you would not want less than X but have no use for more than Y. Fine. To someone else, that sweet spot may be somewhere else. There are hobbyists, photo-journalists, wedding photographers, fanboys who are in for the bragging potential, artists, scientists, beauty/fashion/sports/wildlife photographers, and those who shoot the pictures for international commercial ad campaigns. And many others. Horses for courses.

More megapixels generally are useful as they are one factor (among others) to improve image quality, and they hardly have any detrimental effects ... well, with the exception of faster-growing image archives, of course, forcing you to buy more external hard disks. But then, these are growing fast, too.

More reading on this topic here: The Online Photographer: Myths About Megapixels (...And, Does the D800 Have Too Many?)
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Old 17/02/12, 17:37   #82 (permalink)
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Default Re: Help needed: real world M9 Moire problems

You are entirely missing my point O1af. Lenses DO matter because they have SPECIFIC purposes for practical photography. In many instances more MPixels are irrelevant because of the particular requirements of a specific genre of photography - macro and fast aperture were two examples. Using f/8 on a macro subject will almost certainly not provide sufficient depth of field so the image cannot be enlarged as far, etc., etc..

I hve never said that more MPixels are inherently pointless, but I do believe that for the vast majority (not all though) of photographers, they are. Producing ever bigger files for the sake of doing so is a somewhat academic exercise don't you think. Shooting 5" x 4" to reproduce as 10" x 8" prints may have some relevance but not to most of us.

As it happens I do have a scientific photography background and over the lat few years I have recently been involved in some scientific research where more detailed information about the subject matter would be really helpful. But I'm far from convinced that upping the MPixels will really yield sufficient the extra information to make it worth while considering, given that it will require higher degrees of accuracy at the taking stage and a reduced aperture which will reduce the acceptable 'hit' rate. Both Canon 5D and 5D2s have been used in this work and whilst the 5D2 yields a little more data it isn't as dramatically better as might be hoped.

However the original OP was actually about moire. My own experience of moire being a problem over the last 5 years on the M8 and now the M9 is very limited - its not a problem that I often see although for specific types of subject it might well prove to be - I've seen it on clothing and just once or twice on buildings.
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Old 17/02/12, 22:48   #83 (permalink)
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Default Re: Help needed: real world M9 Moire problems

Sigma SD1, DSLR, with FOVEON APS-C sensor, has just dropped to about a third of its original price.
The manufacturer advertises fine beautiful transitions between the various colors.
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Old 18/02/12, 02:20   #84 (permalink)
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Default Re: Help needed: real world M9 Moire problems

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Sigma SD1, DSLR, with FOVEON APS-C sensor, has just dropped to about a third of its original price.
The manufacturer advertises fine beautiful transitions between the various colors.
Are they also advertising that each camera comes with a pony?
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Old 18/02/12, 05:47   #85 (permalink)
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Default Re: Help needed: real world M9 Moire problems

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Sigma SD1, DSLR, with FOVEON APS-C sensor, has just dropped to about a third of its original price. The manufacturer advertises fine beautiful transitions between the various colors.
Yes Foveon colors are superb really and no moiré problem there. Pity that they don't make a full frame sensor.
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Old 18/02/12, 08:26   #86 (permalink)
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Default Re: Help needed: real world M9 Moire problems

This is a technique that helps reduce the moire to a usable point. It does not completely eliminate moire, but certainly better than nothing. I hope it helps.

Moiré Patterns: Ep 229: Digital Photography 1 on 1: Adorama Photography TV - YouTube
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Old 18/02/12, 12:26   #87 (permalink)
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Default Re: Help needed: real world M9 Moire problems

Thanks Siglo!

This was a very interesting little lecture about the problem.
But, perhaps morality may still be; Sigma FOVEON for weddings and fashion, and our beloved Leica to everything else.
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Old 18/02/12, 15:21   #88 (permalink)
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Default Re: Help needed: real world M9 Moire problems

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Thanks Siglo!

This was a very interesting little lecture about the problem.
But, perhaps morality may still be; Sigma FOVEON for weddings and fashion, and our beloved Leica to everything else.
As everyone on this forum should well know, there is more to cameras and camera selection then sensors. That is why we use Leica's.

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Old 18/02/12, 23:10   #89 (permalink)
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Default Re: Help needed: real world M9 Moire problems

Coincidentally, today I should make some scans of two insane brave Swedish flying acrobatic girls, from an air show back in 2007.
In one of the images, - is revealed, - this uncovered nine-cylinder air-cooled radial engine.
If this picture had been taken with a digital camera with a weak AA filter, it is very likely that it would boil with moiré around all the cooling fins on the cylinders.

KODAK film + R9 camera + Nikon cool scan 9000 = no moiré.

PS
Actually, these two cat girls climbed on top of the wing while the plane did spectacular movements in the air.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Nine-cylinders.jpg (271.7 KB, 87 views)
File Type: jpg Skycat-girl1.jpg (85.8 KB, 86 views)
File Type: jpg Skycat-girl2.jpg (85.6 KB, 87 views)
File Type: jpg Skycat-airshow.jpg (278.6 KB, 85 views)
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Old 21/02/12, 03:12   #90 (permalink)
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Default Re: Help needed: real world M9 Moire problems

Yikes, brave aerial cat girls!

To cut moire, I am informed the latest version of Graphic Converter (an excellent program for Macs) contains corrections under Filter/Core Image Filter.

I have found very little difference comparing JPG with RAW for moire with the M9. (first three images, below). I also compared a JPG from the D-Lux 5. That, too, has moire (and the camera has an anti-aliasing filter). So perhaps the only surefire way to avoid it is indeed film!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg teear house-M9.jpg (208.2 KB, 61 views)
File Type: jpg Teear house M9-DNG.jpg (144.0 KB, 59 views)
File Type: jpg Teear house M9-JPG.jpg (156.9 KB, 59 views)
File Type: jpg teear house d-lux.jpg (157.9 KB, 60 views)

Last edited by NZDavid; 21/02/12 at 03:15.
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