Video mode on future M

[Eastgreenlander]

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I really like my M9 and I am not saying that video mode is a missing feature at all but what a treat that would be if Leica could incorporate video similar to Canon 5DM2 or even a dedicated full frame video camera using M mount lenses. I've now taken over 6000 pictures with my M9 since I received it at the end of november and I like everything about this camera and will continue to do so. Leica M are as we all know stellar lenses and ultra quiet focusing, not to mention fantastic focusing dampening that would look very smooth when changing focus area. Aperture rings are fantastic easy and quick to set and made to be used wide open IMO evething would do great in "video mode". There are no videocameras or vDSLRs that take full advantage of Leica's 35mm M lenses and what a waste that is.

Videographers praised the introduction of large sensor video mode DSLRs and have really expanded buyers to NikCanons cameras and lenses. Leica's sensor is a CDD compered to CMOS which is less light sensitive but would also be a lot less prone to the rolling shutter issue(lines in picture when panning) currently seen in nikcanons VDSRLs.

I've been playing around with my Canon 5DM2 after the firmware update where frames rates was changed to 24fps which look more "film like" IMO. Amazing fun and has really re sparkled my joy for this camera! I don't like using the 5DM2 for pictures but the video mode is for sure a new creative area for me I like to explore. The learning curve in video is steep especially with color grading and editing but fun.

My question for the M user and reader are:

Is a future M likely to have a video mode?

How would you feel about a video mode?

Would you use it if the feature was there?

[DFV]

I guess that the problem is that before asking for video you have to ask for Auto-Focus. I would leave the M as is. Leica need to reissue the R in order to have all these advances. I would love to se a digital R priced below the S.

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[jaapv]

No video without going to CMOS and losing the quality advantage of CCD. There are other solutions for video-even video cameras!

[rosuna]

No video without going to CMOS and losing the quality advantage of CCD.

 

There are no quality advantages of CCDs today, considering dynamic range, color gamut and noise, even at low ISOs. DxO analysis shows this, for instance. I assume you compare with the best CMOS designs, of course.

 

The M9's image quality is positively affected by the color filters by Kodak and the absence of anti-alias filter, but you can have that on a CMOS sensor as well.

[Guido]

I'd rather welcome a dedicated camcorder (maybe the "V1"?) with an M bayonet for Leica glass.

[jaapv]

There are no quality advantages of CCDs today, considering dynamic range, color gamut and noise, even at low ISOs. DxO analysis shows this, for instance. I assume you compare with the best CMOS designs, of course.

 

The M9's image quality is positively affected by the color filters by Kodak and the absence of anti-alias filter, but you can have that on a CMOS sensor as well.

That is not what Dalsa says, and as they build both CMos and CCD sensors, so they have no axe to grind, I respect their opinion, more so than DxO.

[scc]

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Not to mention that CMOS banding is just about the ugliest digital artifact I've seen in photography... I'll take noise over banding any day.

[Eastgreenlander]

No video without going to CMOS and losing the quality advantage of CCD. There are other solutions for video-even video cameras!

 

Why is this? The pro camera from JVC HM700 has CCD as sensor a 1/3" size.

 

Link for specs:

JVC Professional Specifications page

[jaapv]

Yes- but a still camera has a completely different shutter mechanism. A CCD cannot be lit up long enough to allow live view or video, certainly not a large CCD. Video on a still camera is shutterless, like a feed from the live view. This video camera has a video type shutter and a small sensor that allows better heat dissipation.

[ezc203]

I was under the impression that Leica is linked to the RED ONE and SCARLETT line; something about the PL series that rumors the involved of Leica's own, Andreas Kaufmann? (Needs confirming).

 

On the other hand, a digital M with video? I mean, the D LUX 4 has "HD video" capabilities, and does anyone really use it extensively? Maybe a birthday video here, a pet video there; but does anyone use the D LUX 4's video capabilities to do anything more than that? Because if that is the reason why a future M would have video capability, then it would be stupid to include it. (Just saying, do we really need to reason that one out?)

 

Now, if including video capability is to say, challenge the 5Dii and other professional camera, I just really don't know if Leica can do it. It's a lot of work and money, to R&D a camera that can challenge the 5Dii. It has been years since the 5Dii's introduction and its still the NUMBER ONE CHOICE by miles of professionals to film with (when compared to other dSLRs, with the exception of the new RED Scarlett that's coming out). Even Nikon, who has been trying to be competitive can failed to produce a camera that challenges the 5Dii. So does Leica really want to enter a race where they are so far behind already? (That said, if the rumors of Leica working with RED are true, then that is a great way for Leica to attack the market of dSLR filmmaking).

 

As a filmmaker (with a small budget) I film exclusively with the 5Dii and Nikkor lenses. The results are amazing. And even though I am a HUGE Leica fan, I'm not sure I will buy an R10 DSLR with 1080p capabilities. Because the reason people use the 5Dii is because its the best bang for your buck. At ~$4000 you get 80% of the cinematic qualities of a $100000+ Arri set up. Now if Leica was to make a DSLR (or M) with video capabilities, what do you think the price would be? $8000? $10000? And the cost of lenses on top of that. It's just not practical.

 

So in short, should Leica incorporate video capabilities into the next M? Absolutely not.

 

Should Leica make a digital R10 with video capability? Yes, but only because it'll be a digital R solution, and not because its video capabilities.

 

Should Leica branch out into the video-capturing world? Even as a filmmaker, I can't say I'm interested in the possibility. As a photographer, I care even less.

 

Just a naive child's perspective.

Edited March 29, 2010 by ezc203

[250swb]

While instinctively against video in my future M (but not other cameras), one serious advantage for some would be the automatic addition of 'Live View' on the LCD, by which focusing errors from mis-matched lenses or poorly adjusted bodies would be negated in focus critical work. And we could use our M's at arms length, just like a P&S! ;-)

 

Steve

[k-hawinkler]

While instinctively against video in my future M (but not other cameras), one serious advantage for some would be the automatic addition of 'Live View' on the LCD, by which focusing errors from mis-matched lenses or poorly adjusted bodies would be negated in focus critical work. And we could use our M's at arms length, just like a P&S! ;-)

 

Steve

 

CMOS sensor and Live View, as a check for focus calibration and enabling the focus ability of lenses that don't couple to the rangefinder. I am all for it.

There was an extensive discussion about this on this forum in the context of Michael Reichmann's and Thom Hogan open letters to Leica.

 

K-H.

[Shade]

If the Leica M were to have video.. I wouldn't use it anyway. And the price would get even higher. I'd rather have an M9, and a seperate videocam.

 

Not that its not a nice feature to have, but its a feature I won't use much.

[Eastgreenlander]

"On the other hand, a digital M with video? I mean, the D LUX 4 has "HD video" capabilities, and does anyone really use it extensively?"

 

D LUX is 24fps large sonsor type that I long for.

 

"Maybe a birthday video here, a pet video there; but does anyone use the D LUX 4's video capabilities to do anything more than that? Because if that is the reason why a future M would have video capability, then it would be stupid to include it. (Just saying, do we really need to reason that one out?)"

 

Why would this be stupid? I know we all love simplicity of M, including my self. What is takes is extra button. Who knows is what Leica will be able to put inside the M body. Maybe even at the original width M body?

 

 

"Even Nikon, who has been trying to be competitive can failed to produce a camera that challenges the 5Dii. So does Leica really want to enter a race where they are so far behind already? (That said, if the rumors of Leica working with RED are true, then that is a great way for Leica to attack the market of dSLR filmmaking)."

 

When is the next digital M? 3-4 years from now? Don't you thing the technology has evolved?

 

 

"As a filmmaker (with a small budget) I film exclusively with the 5Dii and Nikkor lenses. The results are amazing. And even though I am a HUGE Leica fan, I'm not sure I will buy an R10 DSLR with 1080p capabilities. Because the reason people use the 5Dii is because its the best bang for your buck. At ~$4000 you get 80% of the cinematic qualities of a $100000+ Arri set up. Now if Leica was to make a DSLR (or M) with video capabilities, what do you think the price would be? $8000? $10000? And the cost of lenses on top of that. It's just not practical."

 

R10??? im talking video in M :-)

[jaapv]

While instinctively against video in my future M (but not other cameras), one serious advantage for some would be the automatic addition of 'Live View' on the LCD, by which focusing errors from mis-matched lenses or poorly adjusted bodies would be negated in focus critical work. And we could use our M's at arms length, just like a P&S! ;-)

 

Steve

That is putting the horse beind the cart. If a lens or body is miscalibrated it must be adjusted, not compensated for by an added function.

[bill]

On the other hand, a digital M with video? I mean, the D LUX 4 has "HD video" capabilities, and does anyone really use it extensively?

 

No. Ideal, as you say, for those who take cat pictures who would like to go one step further and capture them actually playing with the ball of string, but...

 

So in short, should Leica incorporate video capabilities into the next M? Absolutely not.

 

+1

 

Should Leica branch out into the video-capturing world? Even as a filmmaker, I can't say I'm interested in the possibility. As a photographer, I care even less.

 

+1

 

If the Leica M were to have video.. I wouldn't use it anyway. And the price would get even higher. I'd rather have an M9, and a seperate videocam.

 

+1

 

Why would this be stupid? I know we all love simplicity of M, including my self. What is takes is extra button. Who knows is what Leica will be able to put inside the M body. Maybe even at the original width M body?

 

Ah splendid, we've not had an "expert" for a while... "What it takes is an extra button." Yeh right. Amazing what functionality magically manifests itself when you add that extra button that is just so simple to stick on. What lies behind it, both literally and figuratively? Have you really so simplistic a view of the world?

 

I want a rapier not a Swiss Army Knife. If you want video use a video camera or one of the Japanese tinker toys.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[Eastgreenlander]

Yes- but a still camera has a completely different shutter mechanism. A CCD cannot be lit up long enough to allow live view or video, certainly not a large CCD. Video on a still camera is shutterless, like a feed from the live view. This video camera has a video type shutter and a small sensor that allows better heat dissipation.

 

Thanks for the info. Interesting.

[250swb]

That is putting the horse beind the cart. If a lens or body is miscalibrated it must be adjusted, not compensated for by an added function.

 

I think the logic of the situation would be that rangefinder focusing (the rangefinder mechanism) wouldn't be needed at all. Via the Live View a contrast detect manual focusing system would be possible with a green light system in the viewfinder to show when an image is in focus. So there would be nothing that needed adjusting, lens and body would calibrate themselves.

 

Steve

[jaapv]

Yes- so it would be some kind of X1 with an M lens mount - nothing to do with the M series and not interesting for the rangefinder crowd.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[fotofoto]

I'd rather welcome a dedicated camcorder (maybe the "V1"?) with an M bayonet for Leica glass.

 

thats the way...