marknorton

With all this talk about a possible FF camera being announced at some point, I thought I'd show you some tests I did to try to answer the question: "Will a FF sensor fit in the M8 body?"

You might think that replacing the existing sensor with a FF one and a new Maestro electronics board might be a simple development but one concern I've had is when you look inside the M8 lens throat and compare it with a film M. The film M lens throat is more open compared to the M8 throat which is more crowded and my question was whether this would cause problems in a full-frame camera.

I decided therefore to fit a "Full Frame" sensor in place of the existing sensor to see how things worked. Sadly, my parts drawers were not overflowing with 18-24MP FF sensors but I did have a piece of ground glass to act as my sensor...

Why is the lens throat more crowded in the M8? The answer of course is that it's the battery getting in the way, as these pictures show.

Here's the front casting with most parts removed, just the strap eyelets, the frame preview lever and the lens mount in place.

Front Shell.jpg

Turning around, you can see at the back of the bayonet ring the 4 leaf-springs which press against the lens bayonet flanges to keep it tightly seated on the bayonet ring. Bottom right, you can see the brass plate which "lubricates" the latch on the base and it's this part which, on rare occasions, has fractured. Not much else to see but you can make out the 3 mounting points each for the shutter and sensor.

Sensor Back.jpg

This is the plastic moulding which is both part battery compartment and lens throat, viewed from the back. The inside surface of the moulding from the front is flocked to avoid reflections.

Plastic Moulding.jpg

Installed in the camera with the battery in place, you can now see why space had to be taken from the lens throat to make space for the battery which accounts for the M8 lens throat being more crowded than in a film M.

Battery.jpg

So, with the lens throat moulding in place, we want to see whether there's enough space to fit a full-frame sensor. Regular readers will recognise this - the M8 sensor and its mounting plate and sensor circuit board which generates the timing signals the sensor requires and performs the all-important analog-to-digital conversion. The 27 * 18mm green area is the light sensitive area and the sensor is bonded to the back of the aluminium carrier plate. You can see, however, that the sensor is rather larger than the frame size.

Sensor.jpg

For this test, I needed a "sensor" area of 24 * 36mm, so produced an alternative aluminium carrier plate with this size aperture, importantly using the same horizontal and vertical centre lines measured from the original - best not to look at the quality of the metal working too closely...

FF Sensor Carrier Plate.jpg

Here is the carrier plate mounted in the front shell with my ground glass screen acting as a FF sensor attached to the back.

Ground Glass Screen.jpg

With the camera mounted on a tripod and a 90mm Elmarit-M mounted, you can see the projection of one of the skylights in my lab onto the ground glass screen. With only half the shell to secure to the base, the elastic bands help keep everything in place. UK readers will recognise these as recycled from what your mail comes bundled with...

Camera on Tripod.jpg

This then is an M8 with a FF "sensor" and you can now see that looking at the upside down view out of my lab, there is clear vignetting left and right and in the corners. Interestingly, the effect is much less pronounced with a wide angle lens which has its exit pupil much closer to the sensor and can see around the obstruction presented by the lens throat.

Vignetting.jpg

Conclusions then? For a FF camera, the lens throat needs to be made bigger. There's no problem on the right hand side as shown here because the space required is currently taken up by the folded light meter flex-print which could be relocated elsewhere. The other side presents more of a problem because of the battery. If you assume that Leica will want to retain the same size battery - and I think most of us would want to be able to interchange batteries and chargers between the M8 and M9 - one way would be to stretch the body by a few mm to move the battery further out from the lens throat. That comes at a price though. A slightly wider body needs new castings, top and bottom plates, new grips, new cases and coverings - Luigi and Morgan at Camera Leather would not be happy.

The alternatives are to move the lens over by a fraction - unlikely IMHO - or use a smaller battery. We know from my power consumption thread that the major user of power is the processing electronics which are expected to be replaced by the Maestro chip set. We also know from comments on the S2 forum that the power requirements of the Maestro are low so it might be possible to use a smaller battery and still obtain a satisfactory battery life. There is still the question of different chargers and batteries for the old and new cameras but maybe that's the price to pay.

I do not think there is a "do nothing" option. It just doesn't appear possible to fit an FF sensor in the current body with the current battery.

So, my prediction, for what it's worth, is that a FF Leica Digital M camera will need be slightly wider than the M8 or else use a smaller battery.

I may of course be proved completely wrong in a few weeks...

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Mark

lxlim

Whew! Mark, you are amazing.

You do stretch the limits, you know that. Three weeks isn't that long to wait for rumours or facts to be proven.

roey

Looks like a fun project!

I wouldn't mind new batteries. Maybe they can also make the body thinner while they are at it.

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lxlim

Would a taller body with batteries lying horizontally be a possible choice?

garygsandhu

Great work; and not much of a s-t-r-e-t-c-h( sorry, I just loved the elastic band!) to get FF -- although I was hoping for a smaller body.

efftee

Mark, you continue to stun me. For what it's worth, a 'source' commented that the upcoming M9 would be slightly wider and thicker, not much (just mm's). If that's true and by your analysis, it would have room for the existing battery and possibly (leaping off a building here) better control of vignettes?

adli

Great work. Interessting that they actually have to redo the body to avoid obstacles in the light path.

When it comes to the battery, I am sure that Leica will come out with a new battery. Battery technology have improved since the M8 battery were designed, so it shuld be possible to design a smaller battery with the same or better capasity.

Steve Ash

Mark, all respect for what you are doing. I would rather prefer to buy some new spare batteries than a bigger M-camera.

Regards
Steve

jonoslack

Splendid Mark
I really enjoyed that.

How long did this take you?

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biglouis

Mark

You are clearly dedicated to the Leica family. Awesome.

LouisB

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hx911

Surely a smaller battery can be made (flattened on the side that is in the way. Otherwise the same. this way the new battery fits in the M8 and the M9. the old M8 batteries wont fit in the M9 though.

P.S. Mark, I so love your input, and the pictures. As an engineer I like to see 'what's inside' - but having taken apart many things that somehow never gor reassembled or functioned properly afterwards, in the case of the M8 you satisfy my curiosity without me incurring the cost!

thanks so much!

rick_dykstra

Oscar B just did another spin in his grave.

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stunsworth

Could the battery be moved to the right hand side, turned through 90 degrees, and used inside an integrated grip?

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carstenw

At the moment the battery is rather forward in the body. Would it not be possible to move it slightly back in the body, relocation some electronics in front and behind the battery to make the room, and then to push it slightly towards the end of the body, not changing the size?

Failing this my preferences is for a different battery, not a different camera shape.

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Jeanette

Why? They should be happy to sell lots of new cases...

Seriously - as others already said, the size of the M9 would be more important to me than buying new batteries. I hope it's at least not bigger than the M8. If it were even smaller (like the M6) that'd be super-cool, but I guess that's hoping too much.

Thanks for your interesting analysis.

spylaw4

Very interesting and informative - many thanks Mark!
I'm just looking at the underneath of my M8 as I write.
It would at first sight seem possible to move the battery to the other side of the lens, relocating the SD card slot elsewhere. I am not sure however (without digging out Mark's original strip-down) how much this would impact on the other circuitry. But then if one is starting with virtually a blank sheet internally and aiming to at least retain the same size body to keep costs down....?
Re moving the battery rearwards - how would this impact on the screen control board?
Steve's suggestion is intriguing and seems worth considering - but then if we are to see an M9 in the immediate future the design will be finalised by now.
My preference would be for a battery of smaller/altered shape. M9 no larger than the M8 please.

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carstenw

In fact, it should be possible to take the same basic battery shape, but to make one (or both) ends flat. The new batteries should fit in the old camera, but not vice versa.

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marknorton

Thank you all for your comments. In answer to Jono - I did this a month or so ago to satisfy my curiosity in an afternoon (Dremel was red hot and diamond cutting discs worse for wear!) but just photographed everything yesterday for its 15 minutes of fame...

As for what will change, we can't be certain. There's an incentive to use as much as what exists as possible but we can be certain they will want to add volume to Maestro by using this chip set in a new camera to save space, power and cost. Having now sorted out the shutter - which is suitable for FF - I'd want to carry that over unchanged if I could and it's that which accounts for most of the space on the right hand side of the camera (viewed from the back).

I expect Leica will have changed the size of the camera only if they have to because of all the implications of doing so. Using a smaller battery and providing, for example, a longer life battery in a deeper base-plate might be an alternative.

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Mark

A Sfeir

Great work, thanks for sharing.
Would the new larger shutter need more space?

marknorton

No, the shutter is already suitable for FF, in my view.

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Mark