M8 "A Camera for life" or M7 for life?

[bussta]

Am trying to wrestle with my wallet and conscious to by a Leica M, initially I was looking at a M6, then M7 and now M8/8.2.

My main worry is longevity in the camera, it being digital do you think it is likely to survive 20 years or so?, I know the M6/M7 are built like a tank and will outlast most cameras, but i'm not sure the M8 is "A Camera For Life", the trend in digital cameras is that they become nearly obsolete with the surge in technology while the film cameras tend to retain their value more, there is the rumor of the M9, so when that arrives the M8 will possibly go the same route as the Digilux 2 and just fade away? leaving you pretty stuck with an unsupported bit of technology, the cheap electronics inside fail and the screen dies, then what?.

Aside from the convenience of digital I don't know if the analogue route would prove to be more expensive?, i'm by no means a pro, just a thirsty amateur with a lust for a Leica. If I buy one I want it to pretty much be the only camera I ever buy again and grow up with it being my best friend.

I know the initial outlay of the M8 is more than a mint 2nd hand M7 or new M7, but film & dev costs will probably amount up to the extra price in the end? as I'm not a pro i'd get a good flatbed Epsom scanner for £200ish & would just scan the negs if I went the M7 route. But then how long is 35mm film going to be around and at what premium if it's made obsolete or becomes a cult art form?

Yes I like the instantaneous result Digital gives and working on Raws in lightroom etc, but there is something romantic and basic about the analogue route that appeals to me. It's real raw photography.

I think what I am trying to ask is would I potentially be wasting my money in the long run buying a M8/8.2 as opposed to going down the old school analogue route with a M7?

[lars_bergquist]

A camera is a tool. A tool is not obsolete as long as it does what you want it to do. The M8 is far ahead of any film 35mm camera, even with the best scanning, because even the best scanning is no better than film. I have worked a lot with medium format cameras, but the M8 is like a medium format camera in a 35mm envelope. Only digital can use the capability of Leica optics to the full.

It is perfectly reasonable to expect a 20 year life for a M8. When my M8 is 20, I will be 91. If I can still hold a camera by then, I may consider a replacement. Your mileage may vary. But though film may well be available when I am 91, colour processing may be a very scarce service indeed. It may even be gone completely, as it is dependent on just a couple of volume producers of the chemistry. And when the volume is gone, they will close shop, as with Kodachrome, even if there is a residual demand.

The old man who came out of the darkroom

[johnalex141r]

Other than some bit of electronics kicking the dust; I'd worry about batteries. They are an interesting (ie, non standard) format; and rechargable batteries do have a shelf life, IIRC. Will M8-formatted batteries be available in 20 years from now?

I'd like to keep mine for "ever" - I still have (and occasionally use) my Fujica rangefinders; one was purchased new by me in the mid '80s.

I expect though, that at some point in time the M8 will die, and the costs to fix will be too high.

JohnS.

[andcolor]

The M8 should do you proud for many, many years. But don't assume it's the last camera you will ever own - you may decide to add to the collection one day.

If you are just starting out a digi camera will do more for your photo skills than you can imagine. Nothing beats instant feedback for developing compositional skills and exposure awareness and just plain better shooting.

Go M8. You will be a happy guy.

[andybarton]

An MP would be a camera for life. A camera that can work without batteries and has a 30 year post-production service guarantee (so long as Leica are still in business) is as good as any other offer out there. Leica still service 70 year old cameras.

I wonder about the availability of spare parts for digital cameras in the medium to long term. Already, Leica are having to canibalise DMR units because the supply of some spares has dried up (due to 3rd party issues, of course, but there are ALWAYS 3rd party issues)

You also have to consider that batteries may no longer be available for 20 year old digital cameras.

[jaapv]

The DMR issues have been solved for the time being.

[charlesphoto99]

You would be wasting money buying an M7 and then scanning the negs on a cheap Epson flatbed scanner. Either plan on printing in a darkroom or getting a dedicated film scanner (at least a Nikon 5000 or better an Imacon). Probably best to go the M8 route.

[earleygallery]

Only the MP could be considered a 'camera for life' - I'm using an M2 (and a lllf) and if something breaks it can be fixed or even machined if necessary.

The M7 is a reliable camera but like my R3, if in the future something electric fails it probably isn't going to be economical to repair.

As for the M8/8.2, again fine whilst its working - is it reasonable to assume that it would still be working well in 10 or 20 years? Probably not IMHO.

You need to think more about how you prefer to work, if you are only planning on having one camera. Film, developing, printing or scanning/printing, or digital. Personally I still prefer the look of film but also use digital.

I'd buy a new MP

[leicanut2]

Andy is right the MP is for life , not the M7 or M8 even the Leica rep told me when I was looking at the MP I may never have to take it in for repairs. Six years later and a outhouse of film run threw it everything is still going strong.

Jan

[delander]

Realistically I dont think that the M8/8.2 will have a life of more than about 6-7 years. Its already nearly 3 years old. By that I dont mean that the M8 will no longer work or take just the same photographs or that Leica wont be able to service it

However, in the digital world technology will have moved on and better cameras will be available to you. You may remain satisfied with your M8 but most will move on to the newer cameras.

Is 24mm Elmarit ASPH for life, well of course it can be but now there is the 24mm Summilux - and so the treadmill goes on.

So get an M8 now enjoy it for 6-7 years at a cost of about £600 pa. Quite good value really.

Jeff

PS I used the same film cameras for 25 years and never felt any need to change to newer models, but digital is not yet a mature technology.

[john_newell]

I think you need to ask yourself what the life of a film camera will be for you. A good film camera has a physical service life of many years yet to come, and you'll be able to buy film (although with diminishing selection) for many years. But does it serve your preferences? I have been wrestling with this in the Leica context recently, having given up and gone digital for SLR photography. I am coming to the conclusion that whatever the future of the M8 may be, my M6es have really run out of usefulness for what I want to do.

Before anyone jumps down my throat, I want to say that I've been using Ms since 1971 or 72 - don't remember exactly. I can't begin to tell you how difficult this is for part of my brain to come to grips with. But during the past week I've been using an M8 and comparing the files to scanned negs from my M6es. From where I sit, the handwriting is on the wall - and it looks a lot like an epitaph. Off to grab my Nomex gear...

Edited to add: I just sold a D100 - yeah, 6mp. I was using it happily until I sold it. It made very good images. If it could write files faster than I can brew a pot of coffee, I'd still be using it. I don't think that the M8 is necessarily going to become a bad tool any time soon. "Outdated"? Sure, soon. But not at all inadequate for our purposes. Remember, 99.999% of the world would say that even an M7 represents only 1970s-era technology, and with the exception of the flash features, they'd be right...

[lct]

Originally Posted by bussta

...would I potentially be wasting my money in the long run buying a M8/8.2 as opposed to going down the old school analogue route with a M7?

In the long run most films will disappear and we'll be using M10 or M11 full frame cameras. Doesn't mean that your M7 or M8 will be obsolete but they will take some dust on your shelves most probably.

[Roland L.]

Originally Posted by lct

In the long run most films will disappear.

To which planet ? I'm only knowing one for socks and one for ball pens.

[tvleeskr]

I am not convinced FF is always an improvement. The M8 sensor gives my pics plenty of sharpness. FF takes the very pleasant crop factor away (not good for my wallet). I suspect the M8 will hold it's value remarkably well after the release of the M9. Will the Canon 1D and 1Ds story repeat itself?
Analogue will have the same future as vinyl. It will not go away. And in many cases still be better then digital. But it will become a niche product. Like the Leica M3-7 cameras, Linn Sondek deck and the Alfa Spider :-))
And Quad amps too of course...
The M8/8.2 will definitely be around for the next 20 years or more.

[bill]

Interesting thread, with the "usual suspect" responses. Leaving aside the bias you will get by posting this in the M8 sub-forum the only sensible answer is a camera that has already proved it's longevity over that period of time, which in turn means a film Leica. Although myself a very happy M7 user if I was buying new today I would buy an MP. Secondhand, I already have the camera that you seek - an M2.

Frankly, I would rather bet on film still being available in 20 years than batteries and electronic components...

Regards,

Bill

[Printmaker]

I still have and use my original M4. It just turned 40 years old. I also have a Linhof Technica that is pushing 50 years old and it still functions as my location 4x5. Chances are both of these cameras will outlive me. No doubt they will find themselves sit on a grandchild's shelf as 20th century curiosities.
But my M8 is an everyday tool. At this point, my per exposure cost is far less than film. Is it a "forever camera"? Well because of its ability to shoot great IR, I'll use it till I can't get batteries or parts. I figure that will be some 10 years or so from now. By then, my cost per exposure will be a penny or two on the M8 and my M9 or M10 will be my primary camera... and if I can still find film, I'll put a roll or two through my M4 for old time sakes.
My 2 cents, buy a used M8 and then trade it in on a M9 when it comes out. If you do any serious amount of shooting, it will be a good investment.

Tom

Kauaisprintmaker.com

[wattsy]

The idea that the M8 might have a 20 year life is, frankly, ludicrously optimistic. I'm pretty surprised mine is still going after just two and half years. The M8 strikes me as simply too prone to component failure over the medium to long term to think it'll still be viable in 2030. Even if something goes wrong with my M8 tomorrow (let alone in 5 or 10 years) I'm not entirely confident it'll be economically sensible to repair it.

With the way energy prices look set to go long term, I'm worried less that the batteries will be around in 20 years than I am that I'll be able to afford to have electricity to charge them.

[trs]

I say, get both M8 and MP. You will enjoy M8, but you will look MP and say, I have got the camera for life.

But, once I went digital, it is really hard for me to shoot film as it is on going expense. I am like yourself, do photo for hobby and make no money from it, it is hard to justify using film except for ocasional fun while I have digital right next to me.

I could not imagine myself without a digital camera. But, I am still lusting for MP just so I have a camera I can say, I will have it for life. It is truly just for lust, no practical purpose in my case. Someday, I will find a MP for right price.

[markgay]

Quoting Lars: It is perfectly reasonable to expect a 20 year life for a M8. When my M8 is 20, I will be 91. If I can still hold a camera by then, I may consider a replacement.

Lars, an elegant answer, as ever.

Quoting John: I think you need to ask yourself what the life of a film camera will be for you.

I’m buying a camcorder for the price of which I could buy one of the new wide angle Summiluxes, or add an M8.2 to my M8.

Instead, I am buying a Panasonic HPX170. I want moving pictures alongside still, just as in the 1960s one would have used a Leica or an early Nikon F alongside Super-8 or 16mm.

Will the Panasonic last. Who knows? I’m buying for what it does. Why should I sink more money into extending my range of M lenses or, worse, a duplicate body, when I can get more variation to my work from a camcorder?

Regards,
Mark

PS My long-life body is an M7. I have no worries about finding spare batteries. There are plenty of 1970s camera electronics still going strong.

If it hadn't been stolen, I'm sure I would still be using my Nikkormat EL vintage 1972.

From Wiki: As Nippon Kogaku's first electronic autoexposure camera, the EL required a battery (one 6 V PX-28 or 4SR44 in the bottom of the mirror box) to power its electronically controlled metal-bladed, vertical travel, focal plane shutter to a speed range of 4 to 1/1000th second plus Bulb and flash X-sync of 1/125th second.

What ARE you worrying about?

[Julian Thompson]

If you are a tennis player you need a racket and some kit, and a club membership, right?

If you do trackdays you need a car, engine rebuilds, service and to pay for circuit time, right?

If you play golf you must buy clubs, balls, drinks (;---)), silly jumpers (;------))) and a club membership, right?

Well, if you're into digital M photography you need some lenses which you can keep as long as you wish and a camera body. If you take the cost of a new 8.2 at about say £3.5k even if it lasts only 3.5 years it's a grand a year. One trackday at Silverstone is £450. I have a pal who paid £300 for one fishing reel. Another who thinks nothing of snapping a £200 club across his knee since he is extraordinarily bad at golf. Though he is good at silly jumpers and beer which is some consolation! :-))

In summary - 'Life' is a long time. Buy the camera and shoot some shots. Nothing else you ever buy with that many components will last a lifetime so I am unconvinced that you should expect it of your camera body?