Just to make things clear

[jaapv]

There seems to be an impression on this forum that Carl and I disagree on the roadmap for the M series. We do not.
I would like to add we are both fluent in German, so there is no doubt about translations and such.

We both heard Stefan Daniel say:

1: There will be a future M
2. There are indications there is a solution for the IR filters, but that is still being worked on by the Leica engineers.
3. The future M will be full format
4. The future M will be announced after the production and delivery of the S2 has been implemented. Currently the S2 is taking up resources that cannot be diverted to other projects
5. The S2 is running on time and the delivery will be as announced before, i.e September
6. The R-solution will be announced after the M camera is implemented, probably (interpretation!) not in 2010

The impression Stefan Daniel gave is that the work on the M9 is progressing well.

Our interpretations on dates differ. Carl thinks we may have to wait until the Fotokina for the M news, I think it might well be before that time.

One thing Carl did not pick up and I did is that Stefan said at one point:
"be it an M9 or M8.3"

.................................................. .................

In a later conversation I tackled Stefan on the view/rangefinder.
Leica has looked into the accuracy of the optical rangefinder as it is now, as they are obviously aware that the M8 is at the performance limit of the system, as Mark has often pointed out.
Stefan told me that tests by Leica engineers have proved that, with the different magnification factor, the classic optical finder is better on full format than on the M8.

To me that implies that the M9 will have an M7 style optical rangefinder and effectively kills all speculation on the introduction of electronic gadgetry into the system. It may even be a hint as to the form factor of the camera

[cbretteville]

Thanks Jaap for posting this. I stand by what is said in the post.

Cheers,
- Carl

PS: If any one is offended by my texting the info to Andy in my iPhone while having dinner and trying to translate to other non speaking atendees I'm sorry. My reasoning was that those not present might want the information as soon as possible.

[scott kirkpatrick]

One source of discrepancies is that Jaap's glass seems to be at least half-full, while Carl's is carefully half-empty.

scott

[jaapv]

The identical glass in this thread...

[rickp13]

"just to make things clear", i'd like to say thanks to you two, andy and others for working so hard to share news from the leica weekend with those of us who couldn't attend. it is much appreciated.

greetings from hamburg

rick

[cbretteville]

Originally Posted by scott kirkpatrick

One source of discrepancies is that Jaap's glass seems to be at least half-full, while Carl's is carefully half-empty.

There is a reason for this. A) Norwegians are skeptical as a people. b) As some of you know already I'm a software engineer and designer. I've suffered too many times from sales staff's promises and lack of understanding of the complexities involved in an engineering process. I'm not saying this is the case at Leica, far from it. I'm just offering a little background as to why I'm coming across more conservative than Jaap.

- Carl

[marknorton]

Originally Posted by jaapv

In a later conversation I tackled Stefan on the view/rangefinder.
Leica has looked into the accuracy of the optical rangefinder as it is now, as they are obviously aware that the M8 is at the performance limit of the system, as Mark has often pointed out. Stefan told me that tests by Leica engineers have proved that, with the different magnification factor, the classic optical finder is better on full format than on the M8.

That's good to hear; it's certainly the case that the rangefinder on my two upgraded cameras is much more accurate than it was and I expect that having the shutter upgraded has forced the camera through the alignment process which may have been refined since my cameras were made. Certainly, rangefinder accuracy has been much less of an issue on the forum recently.

My recent pleadings have been more to do with getting rid of the bits and pieces we have to attach to the camera - finders, magnifiers, dioptres and I had hoped for a "super finder" which would have really underscored this key differentiating feature of the Leica M.

[zeitz]

I too want to give my thanks for this discussion, from one who could not be there.

Carl, could you clearly state, as Jaap did at the beginning of this thread, what your heard? I don't know what threat your original is posted in.

[cbretteville]

Jaap posted what we both heard in the first post in this thread. I tried to convey that in my reply, but see I should have been clearer. I apologize of this. Jaap and I agreed upon the text before he posted it.

There was some more information too and that can be found in the lengthy thread here:
http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/digital-forum/89060-hessenpark-news-official-no-r10-no-2.html

- Carl

[efftee]

Originally Posted by rickp13

"just to make things clear", i'd like to say thanks to you two, andy and others for working so hard to share news from the leica weekend with those of us who couldn't attend. it is much appreciated.

greetings from hamburg

rick

ditto

[rosuna]

Originally Posted by jaapv

One thing Carl did not pick up and I did is that Stefan said at one point:
"be it an M9 or M8.3"

...

Does it means "be it a 24x36mm sensor or a 1,33 cropped sensor"?

[jaapv]

I would call it 99.??? % certain that the M9 will be 24x36, there was no specification whatever given for a possible M8.3. I'm afraid you'll have to draw your own conclusion.

[andreas_thomsen]

if all this is true - leica has the most unprofessional marketing department in the industrie. announcing an M9 and not selling the product at least 3 weeks later will kill all M8 and M8.2 sales (at the current price level) a minute after the statement.
The announcement of the S2 was a total diffrent piece of cake - because it's a new produkt.
cheers
andy

[stunsworth]

Originally Posted by andreas_thomsen

...announcing an M9 and not selling the product at least 3 weeks later will kill all M8 and M8.2 sales (at the current price level) a minute after the statement.

Well in fairness to Leica they haven't said when the M9 will be released, what the spec will be, or how much it will cost, just that one is in the pipeline.

Surely the fact that they are developing an M9 shouldn't be a surprise to anyone?

[jaapv]

Originally Posted by andreas_thomsen

if all this is true - leica has the most unprofessional marketing department in the industrie. announcing an M9 and not selling the product at least 3 weeks later will kill all M8 and M8.2 sales (at the current price level) a minute after the statement.
The announcement of the S2 was a total diffrent piece of cake - because it's a new produkt.
cheers
andy

Leica has it tough... If they are late in announcing something they get a lambasting on the forums for that, if they make a timely announcement the other half of the forum members calls them fools...

[marknorton]

It's impossible to know but seems unlikely the M9 would be the only DRF that Leica produces, just too expensive. Instead, they could well retain a lower cost cropped camera - let's call it the M8.3 - which makes us of the new electronics platform while the M9 is full frame.

I would have thought Leica would want to launch a FF Digital M at Photokina 2010, it is after all the Holy Grail of DRF photography. Last thing they want is to announce the camera and then have an S-2 style wait during which sales fall through the floor. Maybe launch the M8.3 first...

[cbretteville]

Originally Posted by jaapv

Leica has it tough... If they are late in announcing something they get a lambasting on the forums for that, if they make a timely announcement the other half of the forum members calls them fools...

We should have kept it to ourselves Jaap. Our little secret.....

- Carl

[stunsworth]

Originally Posted by marknorton

It's impossible to know but seems unlikely the M9 will be the only DRF that Leica then produces. Instead, they could well retain a lower cost cropped camera - let's call it the M8.3 - which makes us of the new electronics platform while the M9 is full frame.

What I've suggested on another thread is that Leica could introduce a revised M8.2 with an improved 1.33 crop sensor - lower sensor noise and faster electronics later this year, Then introduce a full frame M9 a year after that. At that point they lower the cost of the M8.3 and position it as an entry model.

[rosuna]

I think the total production costs between the two models wouldn't be that large.

Leica can develop a cheaper M8 camera, but then the differences with the current models (and with the M9) must be more substantial than internal electronics...

[jaapv]

Yes. As soon as you change the sensor you must change the electronics. If you want less noise you need far more processing power (more important than the sensor btw) so you need the Maestro chip That in turn means you have to redesign the body shell,that means retooling from the casting process through the whole production including final assembly - a major operation. My guess is that we will only see an M8.3 -which would then mean a cropped camera with new electronics- if they cannot get full format to the production stage within an acceptable timeframe.