M8/9 as a true system camera offering

[BigSplash]

Separately in the Leica Forum (Thread ; Challenges for new CEO) I have been urged to contact the M Forum to make the case for a new generation Visoflex, Bellows and Telyt lenses.

I use the 40 year old Visoflex on M8 with Bellows for close up and several Telyt lens on a fast focus mount...it is great! However technology has advanced asignificantly in electronics, software, metallurg, optics, CAD toold etc so today's Bext Gen Visoflex could be a hugely different animal to what I use today (40 years old!)

I see the following:
1) The M8 (and eventual full frame M9) is essentially a point and shoot camera that is ideal for wide angle through to say 90mm...Best in the world in terms of focussing accuracy vis a vis an SLR, quality of build, quiet shutter etc etc....it costs about £2500 for a body, and £6-8K for a few lenses...ie it is expensive if that is all it does in my view!
2) Many users like me need the capability to photo in close up (sculptures, flowers, electronic black boxes, and small parts etc.) Other users want a long focus lens (200mm to say 560mm) and do NOT want to buy a second camera SLR (which Leica does not make currently!) ....It is extra kit, and extra cost.
3) Leica M series used to be a system camera and not something that is purely for photos of family, babies,portraits, landscapes, etc (wide angle to 90mm)

I propose the following:
a) M9 should be full frame and have the ability to accept light reading sensor info. from a new generation mirror housing. and also pass Aperture size, and Auto Focus, and any other lens related info.
b) The new "R" lenses should be available for the 200mm upwards size in two register lengths or an adapter made available to accommodate the mirror box depth (internal to "R10" and external to the "M")
c) The new generation Visoflex would allow focussing, framing, show the lens aperture and shutter speed selected and light reading / measurement ...this would require handshaking between lens and camera body.
d) The new Viso should be priced at about £2K

Such an approach would make the M9 into a true full system camera and in my view a world beater. The benefits are obvious:
1) The M9 digital body is the EXPENSIVE bit and contains the full frame sensor, the sensor electronics and software, the shutter mechanism, the light measurement electronics, and all of the menu software: White balance ISO number, RAW / JPEG selection etc etc.
2) The new generation Viso opens up the M9 consept to becoming once again a true system camera and build on existing investment.
3) Protects the M9 natural segment as the best way to photograph for wide to 90mm
4) Is less cost and less kit than two different camera systems for those that go on Safari!
5) Leica develops the long focus "R" lenses and reuses these for the "M9" with new generation Viso...and as a company differentiates itself significantly.
6) Leica offers other items that they badge engineer to make a more comprehensive system offer....eg appropriate flash, IR or wireless transmitter, smart slave for Metz flagship products, and studio lighting required for close ups. eg bellows eg the 4 legged gadget for copying ...etc


Comments?

[andybarton]

Your point 2. How many users? How do you know that there are "many"? You are the only person on the forum to date who has proopsed such a move.

How would it be if I set up a poll to see how many people would be interested in buying a NEW Visoflex at two thousand pounds - roughly the same price as a Canon 5DII, and no doubt, something similar from Nikon

[Nicoleica]

Depending upon which lens system(s) it supported, and what features it offered, I would most likely be interested.

[PavelDerka]

This is more than just the direct thing itself. The more there is to the system, the more capability it can be made to have ... the stronger the whole rangefinder concept - and that is something we are all interested in.

Yes. Definitely, I would be interested. The close up limitations - that happens to be THE feature that has delayed my entry into RF and Leica for three years! I keep a Nikon system around just because of it. I don't do macro ... but close up is close to essential for me.

[marknorton]

Originally Posted by Nicoleica

Depending upon which lens system(s) it supported, and what features it offered, I would most likely be interested.

Don't encourage him, Nicole...

[BigSplash]

Originally Posted by andybarton

Your point 2. How many users? How do you know that there are "many"? You are the only person on the forum to date who has proopsed such a move.

How would it be if I set up a poll to see how many people would be interested in buying a NEW Visoflex at two thousand pounds - roughly the same price as a Canon 5DII, and no doubt, something similar from Nikon

Andy absolutely ....please do set up a poll but please make sure that you ask the right questions:
1 Do you ONLY own a Leica M camera....or do you also have a digital SLR?
2 Do you own a Leica M camera with several lenses and would want to do some close up and Telphoto (>90mm) work?
3 Would you buy a £2k Visoflex that does as per above....You already have a yes from me and one other yes already in the space of minutes!

Of course the real question for Leica management is:
>Would an uncommitted "target market" camera buyer consider a Leica M without such a device being available?

.........I am sure I would NEVER have done this 40 years ago when I started buying M equipment, if the Visoflex had not been available at the time.

Today I would simply buy a Canon 50D or similar as this is a true system camera. OK I would not have the weight and size advantage of a Leica M8, and maybe the lenses are better with Leica but Canon for most people is not that bad!

[Marty]

No - and I would pay £2K to keep it that way.

[andybarton]

I have set the poll up - you need to ask one question, not several, otherwise people do not know what they are responding to.

Let's see how it goes. 2:10 last time I looked.

Originally Posted by frankowen@wanadoo.fr

Of course the real question for Leica management is:
>Would an uncommitted "target market" camera buyer consider a Leica M without such a device being available?

The average person considering a camera such as an M8 (is there and _average_ one?) would wonder what on earth Leica were playing at by trying to sell them a bit of kit that may have been expedient in 1960 to get round a problem, but has been overtaken by far more sophisticated and appropriate solutions. When was the last time Leica made these? Would it coincide with the SL or the R-line, by any chance?

[BigSplash]

Originally Posted by PavelDerka

This is more than just the direct thing itself. The more there is to the system, the more capability it can be made to have ... the stronger the whole rangefinder concept - and that is something we are all interested in.

Yes. Definitely, I would be interested. The close up limitations - that happens to be THE feature that has delayed my entry into RF and Leica for three years! I keep a Nikon system around just because of it. I don't do macro ... but close up is close to essential for me.

Pavel -We are on the same wavelength 100%.....Purchase of a M delayed 3 years because the next gen viso was not available.
Nicole - Thanks for your vote
Myself - I would never have bought a Leica without Viso and I would not recently have bought V8 if I did not already have a Viso that works with the M8.

That is 3 units in 3 minutes....Andy are you caving in and seeing now the need!!

Pavel talks close up....others will talk Telephoto !

Can I rely on someone to take the idea to Solms....the concept is too long I feel to simply just add to the wish list that has been compiled!

[andybarton]

Of course I don't see the need - it's just a ridiculous idea!

Why don't you telephone Solms and ask them yourself?

[noah_addis]

I'm not so sure. I don't see rangefinders as 'do-it-all' cameras. It seems like if you want one system to do macro work, super telephoto work, etc., that an SLR would be a better system for you.

Rangefinders have always been good at certain things. Working discreetly, focusing in low-light, wide-angle work, etc. They were never intended as complete system cameras. I know many photojournalists, for example, would carry a leica or two with wide lenses and a Nikon with a 180mm.

It certainly wouldn't bother me if Leica comes out with a new viso, I just don't know if the time and R&D money would be well spent since I believe it would appeal to a very small number of photographers. Especially since, at the price you mention, you could buy a very capable DSLR and a pro-level lens or two.

I think the beauty of the M system is simplicity and I believe Leica would be smart to focus on its strengths. As a small company Leica clearly has limited resources, so I'd like to see those resources spent on making the best digital rangefinder possible, preferably with full frame, better low-light performance, etc.

[BigSplash]

[quote=andybarton;930797]I have set the poll up - you need to ask one question, not several, otherwise people do not know what they are responding to.

Let's see how it goes. 2:10 last time I looked.


Andy the question is so misleading....Would I buy a 40 year old Visoflex for £2K that is newly manufactured by Leica ...NO! (I can pick one up secondhand for £100 I guess)

Would I buy a Next Gen Viso that compliments my M8 investment and allows me to use the new "R" lenses and "Old R" lenses and maybe "old Telyt" lenses then YES

I am sure that you will get the answer you are looking for with the way you have loaded the question. Try asking the propoer question!

[rob_x2004]

Is it on eBay?

[bybrett]

Originally Posted by frankowen@wanadoo.fr

3) Leica M series used to be a system camera and not something that is purely for photos of family, babies,portraits, landscapes, etc (wide angle to 90mm)


Comments?

What a gem!

[stunsworth]

Originally Posted by frankowen@wanadoo.fr

I am sure that you will get the answer you are looking for with the way you have loaded the question. Try asking the propoer question!

If Andy has asked "Are you interested in an updated version of a system that wasn't selling 40 years ago?", I'd agree with you. But the question actually asked seems fair to me. I think anyone who's read your messages on the subject will realise what's being asked.

Oops, I see Andy's made the same point.

[andybarton]

Originally Posted by frankowen@wanadoo.fr

Andy the question is so misleading....Would I buy a 40 year old Visoflex for £2K that is newly manufactured by Leica ...NO! (I can pick one up secondhand for £100 I guess)

Would I buy a Next Gen Viso that compliments my M8 investment and allows me to use the new "R" lenses and "Old R" lenses and maybe "old Telyt" lenses then YES

I am sure that you will get the answer you are looking for with the way you have loaded the question. Try asking the propoer question!

You have explained, at length, both in this thread and the other, about what you want from a new Visoflex. I don't think that the question is misleading at all. No one is suggesting that you pick up a 40 year old version for two grand.

I have, however, added as much description as I can to the question to make it obvious that no one is suggesting that people pay two grand for an old bit of kit.

So, when DID Leica stop making them?

[Nicoleica]

Originally Posted by marknorton

Don't encourage him, Nicole...

Sorry Mark, but an up-rated Visoflex would be of interest to me. I too like to use long lenses for nature and wildlife photographs, and would love to be able to use my M8 for this. I currently keep a Nikon system for this use alone.

[stunsworth]

Originally Posted by andybarton

So, when DID Leica stop making them?

1980s according the Cameraquest...

Leica M Visoflex System

Which contains this gem regarding the system...

"Imagine Rolls Royce quality designed by Picasso, you get the idea."

[andybarton]

So, it would be like bringing back "Spandau Ballet", then.

Oh, hang on...

[Nicoleica]

Originally Posted by andybarton

So, it would be like bringing back "Spandau Ballet", then.

Oh, hang on...

Then you'd need to use an MP.3