M9 should have shutter cocking/advance lever

[bill]

Originally Posted by marknorton

I agree with Jaap, it's not at all obvious that a mechanical wind would be less expensive to produce than a motor wind. It's in the R-D1 because that camera is closely based on the Bessa film equivalent.

Making the motor optional would free space within the camera and reduce power consumption.

I was struck by the Annie Leibovitz documentary that an M with a compact motor such as we have now is a workable package and standing the M8 side by side with a film M, wouldn't it be nice if the M8 was as slim? [Before people talk about the thickness of the LCD package, the body could lose a couple of mm by making the sensor and DSP boards co-planar].

By the way, I've never heard the newest film M winder. How quiet is it? I've only heard the older generation ones which are loud enough to wake the dead.

It's pretty quiet, Mark. Certainly an improvement on the old "waking the dead" earlier versions. Not as quiet as a Leicavit or Rapidwinder, but pretty good nonetheless. BUT like all such options it increases the size of the package.

You raise a point about thickness; call me shallow, but this was one of the disappointments for me with the M8, and one of the reasons why I don't have one. I have learned over the years that if a camera doesn't fit well in my hand, then no matter how I try I will never be fully happy with it as a working tool. I suppose I am too used to the film Ms to be comfortable with the thicker M8, particularly (note the neat segue back on topic ) without somewhere to rest my thumb and hence get a firmer grip. Oh I know about the Thumbs-Up, and Griptac, etc, but they are all aftermarket add-ons to address an issue. YMMV, of course.

Regards,

Bill

[Colemanbear]

Ok, I don't want to go over ground covered already so I'll limit my response to this:
Personally (seems to be an issue here) I find that the physical size of the camera and the fact that this leaves most of your face exposed when shooting has a lot to do with peoples response. I can't say I've noticed anyone reacting differently to me when using the M8 versus the M6.
Old ground:
I did habitually walk around with my thumb hooked in the M6 lever and was, at the start, less than happy with the M8's physical handling in it's absence. Now though I have no issue with it at all, I find it perfect to handle. At this point a wind on seems like a throw back.

Also, I have to agree with the other poster on the IR filter point:
I've found the pink flashing of the filter when moving around draws more attention to me than anything else.
Cheers,
Ivan

[peter55]

Ok, I will wait untill late September and see if the M9 comes out. But if there is no wind on shutter lever I guess when the money is available it will go fow a new Epson R-D1s. That should leave a few thousand dollars left over for badly needed photo printing supplies like rolls of 24" wide photo paper and lots and lots of ink, and a dozen boxes of 13" x 19" photo paper.

I have so many digital cameras and out of them all only my Epson R-D1 feels like a film camera. As a hobbiest I'm allowed to have such taste in cameras. I will also continue shooting all my film cameras as well.

It's too bad, as far as I'm concernred about an M DRF with an auto advance motor. It must be my age as I'm 58 years young and I guess I am just used to and enamored by 35mm film cameras as wonderfull mechanical machines. I know my Canon 1Ds MKll has great image quality and I will continues to use it as a tool for my Landscape photographic endeavors. But for fun and pleasure nothing beats my R-D1 with older Leitz Wetzlar lenses and the IQ is fine up to 13" x 19" print size. I will give 24" x 36" print size a go and see just how good my Leitz lenses really are. If they work out at that size then I will absolutly sell my 1Ds Mark ll and 20D, 300D, 350XT and 450XSi and my 10 L lenses. Well maybe I'll keep the 450XSi and Sigma 800mm f/5.6 and 500mm f/4.5 APO lenses for my birding. I can use the money to get myself some nice Viso ll close up equipment, bellows, rails etc. The world of Macro photography is starting to becon me.

Thanks for the responses everyone as I did enjoy all of your opinions and shared knowledge. That's one way that I for one can learn from others here at the Leica Users forum. - Peter

[peter55]

Ok, I will wait untill late September and see if the M9 comes out. But if there is no wind on advance lever I guess when the money is available it will go for a second Epson and this time a new Epson R-D1s. That should leave a few thousand dollars left over photo printing supplies like rolls of 24" wide photo paper and lots and lots of ink, and a dozen boxes of 13" x 19" photo paper.

I have so many digital cameras and out of them all only my Epson R-D1 feels like a film camera. As a hobbiest I'm allowed to have such taste in cameras. I will also continue shooting all my film cameras as well.

It's too bad, as far as I'm concernred about an M DRF with an auto advance motor. It must be my age as I'm 58 years young and I guess I am just used to and enamored by 35mm film cameras as wonderfull mechanical machines. I know my Canon 1Ds MKll has great image quality and I will continues to use it as a tool for my Landscape photographic endeavors. But for fun and pleasure nothing beats my R-D1 with older Leitz Wetzlar lenses and the IQ is fine up to 13" x 19" print size. I will give 24" x 36" print size a go and see just how good my Leitz lenses really are. If they work out at that size then I will absolutly sell my 1Ds Mark ll and 20D, 300D, 350XT and 450XSi and my 10 L lenses. Well maybe I'll keep the 450XSi and Sigma 800mm f/5.6 and 500mm f/4.5 APO lenses for my birding. I can use the money to get myself some nice Viso ll close up equipment, bellows, rails etc. The world of Macro photography is starting to interest me more and more.
I will also keep my Nikon film and DSLR and set of primes and same goes for my Pentax gear.

Thanks for the responses everyone as I did enjoy all of your opinions and shared knowledge. That's one way that I for one can learn from everone here at the Leica Users forum. - Peter

[noah_addis]

I'd like a manual wind too. Mostly I think it would extend battery life, make the camera quieter and I do like the feel of shooting with a manual wind.

I'd also like the quieter (and possibly more reliable) cloth shutter.

What I wouldn't like is a reversible lcd. I know lots of cameras have them, but it just seems to me that it would add bulk, complexity and another thing that could possibly break to what is currently a pretty simple camera design.

You can turn off review and will have no glowing lcd after each frame unless you choose to review your images. Since I've started shooting with the M8, i've had quite a few people ask me if I was shooting film, even some pro photojournalists who were unaware that leica came out with a digital M. So, not that I care if people think I'm shooting film or digital, but the M8 as it stands looks like a film camera to most people.

As I have suggested before around here, I'd be into the idea of a camera with no lcd, raw only and an iso dial where the MP rewind knob would be.

But short of that, I'm happy with the design of the M8 and would prefer future upgrades to focus on image quality, high iso performance and a bigger buffer and/or faster processing.

[lct]

Originally Posted by noah_addis

...What I wouldn't like is a reversible lcd. I know lots of cameras have them, but it just seems to me that it would add bulk, complexity and another thing that could possibly break to what is currently a pretty simple camera design....

With its reversible LCD, the R-D1 is slimmer than the M8 and gives me the feeling that i don't use a digital camera. Not only it does not add complexity but i end up forgetting the LCD to a point where i don't use it any more during shootings. FWIW.

[sean_reid]

Peter55,

Sometimes a camera ends up having advantages, for specific photographers, that its designers may have never dreamed of. But if these aspect of the R-D1 are working well for what you're trying to do that's great. Might those same aspects pose the same kinds of advantages for other people? Maybe...who knows? Might as well put the observations out there in case they light a spark for someone.

I also think its always true that if photographers feels at ease with the way they are working, subjects pick up on that. So if the R-D1 makes you feel at ease, that's good. I like shooting with it too.

Cheers,

Sean

[sean_reid]

Originally Posted by lct

Same experience as yours with my Epson's, Peter. I would not mind to have a motor winder (with a larger buffer) but not at the price of the shutter noise of the M8, thanks no thanks.

Hi LCT,

The M8 shutter itself is quieter than that of the R-D1 but, of course, the difference between them (auto advance vs. cocking lever is noticeable). That said, I shoot with both and have never noticed much difference in one attracting more attention than the other.

Cheers,

Sean

[sean_reid]

Originally Posted by Colemanbear

Also, I have to agree with the other poster on the IR filter point:
I've found the pink flashing of the filter when moving around draws more attention to me than anything else.
Cheers,
Ivan

Interesting, I've never experienced that when working with the M8.

Cheers,

[stunsworth]

Originally Posted by sean_reid

The M8 shutter itself is quieter than that of the R-D1 but, of course, the difference between them (auto advance vs. cocking lever is noticeable)

I think the oft requestion firmware modification where the shutter was optionally re-cocked when the finger was lifted off the shutter release would be a useful optional setting. Obviously it wouldn't apply if shooting in continuous mode.

[noah_addis]

Originally Posted by lct

With its reversible LCD, the R-D1 is slimmer than the M8 and gives me the feeling that i don't use a digital camera. Not only it does not add complexity but i end up forgetting the LCD to a point where i don't use it any more during shootings. FWIW.

Point taken on the R-D1 being slimmer. But there's no way that the mechanisms involved in a reversible lcd aren't more complex than in a fixed one. Clearly there is a hinge mechanism and flexible circuitry of some kind. And these are things that could theoretically go bad at some point. Not to mention sand and dirt could enter, etc.

I've never used the R-D1 and I'm sure the mechanism is robust, but with all of the things that can go wrong with a digital camera, I like the cleaner design of the M8's fixed lcd.

Again, you don't need to look at the lcd on the M8. It's a matter of discipline. Or, you could gaffer's tape over it if needed.

[lct]

Originally Posted by noah_addis

...Again, you don't need to look at the lcd on the M8...

I use ordinary LCDs like the M8's with my DSLRs but i don't like that. Always wondering what that piece of glass is doing under my nose. I prefer reversible ones like the R-D1's for the reasons i stated above.

[adan]

One of the reasons I liked the M thumb wind was the ability to ratchet it in 2-3 short 20/30-degree strokes. With a vertical-blade shutter, real ratcheting is not possible - something to do with the springing and locking of the shutter. The Epson (as with all other thumbwind vertical shutters ever since the first Nikkormat) requires a full 90/120-degree stroke to be made, although it can be made in several stages.

For that reason I'm not that excited by a thumbwind for the digital bodies - prefer the M8's built-in motor with practically no extra bulk (over what the M8 needs anyway for digital circuitry behind the sensor).

To get a real ratcheting manual wind a digital M would require going back to the silk-curtain M shutter. Which would have some other noise advantages, but would also suck up so much internal real estate that the whole camera - with all the digital bits - would be bigger than an M5 or some DSLRs.

Flippable LCD - I prefer simple

Noticability - Did have some kids I was snapping who saw a pink spot on the sidewalk (reflection of the sun from my IR filter) and thought they were being tracked by a laser device. Broke the mood a bit. Perfectly happy to give up the IR filters SO LONG AS nothing else - like image quality or crop factor - suffers as a result.

[Colemanbear]

Originally Posted by sean_reid

Interesting, I've never experienced that when working with the M8.

Cheers,

Don't get me wrong it's not like everyone stares in my direction all the time, but I have had a few comments (2 actually) but they've been more out of interest than aggravation.

Cheers

[jamriman]

I'd like an advance lever because it will make it more like a film camera (I miss my M7). I liked my thumb on the advance lever. I miss the smooth feeling of cocking the shutter. I hope its on the M9.

[marknorton]

Originally Posted by adan

One of the reasons I liked the M thumb wind was the ability to ratchet it in 2-3 short 20/30-degree strokes. With a vertical-blade shutter, real ratcheting is not possible - something to do with the springing and locking of the shutter. The Epson (as with all other thumbwind vertical shutters ever since the first Nikkormat) requires a full 90/120-degree stroke to be made, although it can be made in several stages.

Interesting point Andy; on the Epson, if you resume an interrupted stroke, the lever goes back to the point of interruption to continue, so it would be possible to add a ratchet action, maybe it's not thought necessary to justify the cost, but I agree, the multi-stroke on the film Ms is good.

[adan]

Right, Mark. It's somewhat hard to describe economically, but what I meant is what you said - one can PAUSE in winding a vertical-blade shutter (copal-style), and either the lever will stick out where you paused, or swing freely back to zero - but the winding cannot be completed until the thumblever has gone through its whole range of travel at least once.

Whereas the film M's (and horizontal-shuttered SLRs - Nikon F 1/2/3, Canon F1, Canon AE-1, Olympus OM) could be fully wound in short multiple strokes.

I remember being told early on in my photo career (about the time of Watergate) that there was a mechanical reason why a true ratcheted wind of the Nikon F/Leica M type could not be used with blade shutters, only curtain shutters.

In researching the question I did find THIS: cameras3 in which the author notes that the Rollei 35mm SLR has the ONLY vertical shutter with ratcheted wind, and that it was a proprietary Zeiss or Rollei design, not Copal. So it is possible - just never done in the hundreds of camera designs using blade shutters except this once.

[marknorton]

Andy, it certainly is difficult to describe economically - I had the same problem.

You'll remember this picture - the shutter is cocked by a single rotation of the cam through 360 degrees. It's possible to think of a ratcheting action where each nudge of the lever moves the cam further round in its travel and the cam is prevented from going backwards by the ratchet. Eventually, the cam will have done its turn and the shutter will be cocked.

I think the complexity comes after the shutter is fully cocked. At that point, you want to prevent any further forward cocking action of the wind-on lever, lock the lever when it returns to its home position and also prevent the release movement of the cocking lever being impeded by the lever in any position. Finally, once the shutter is fully released, it needs to unlock the wind-on lever and re-enable the cocking action.

I do wonder whether in this day of electronics and software whether we've lost the ability to design mechanisms which implement this sort of logic without taking the easy way out and using a microprocessor.

Shutter Wind.jpg

[peter55]

Perhaps this should be a new thread because I have one more request. Does anyone remember the Voightlander Prominent 35mm film rangefinder camera? It has a rangefinder with the viewfinder set for left eyed shooters like myself. I would like to see an DRF M like this. What I have been doing recently is retraining my right eye to be my viewing eye looking through the viewfinder. All this so as to avoid my nose hitting the camera (as this happens all the time when using my left eye) and also to allow the viewing eye to come in closer to the viewfinder. There is just no way I could ever get my left eye close in and tight against the rubber vewfinder. Noy unless I turn my face a lot to the right. I can see better through the viewfinder with my right eye because my nose is not in the way and I'm lookin straight ahead.

Also I always use a rubber eye-cup on all my cameras to shield out unwanted stray light as I have found this allows the viewfinder eye to detect more contrast and aids my manual focusing. So for the Epson R-D1 I am using the same Nikon DK-3 Round Rubber Cup that I use on my Nikon D1H and it's working for me.

Guess what, when I do use my right eye as the viewfinder eye there is not even a hint of trouble with the shutter cocking lever and I do not have to remove my eye from the close in contact with the rubber cup around the viewfinder. So I am allowed to be continuously looking through the viewfinder for a good shot. All the while framing and focusing on subjects of interest in the field of view of my rangefinder. We all know about this benifit over any dslr.