Leica shutter sound

[jrc]

After reading through the "silent mode" thread again...I remember it from last year...I wondered if instead of going to a quieter shutter, has anyone considered the possibility of simple insulation? Is there enough room around the shutter mechanism to fit a bit of foam to the inside of the metal case? How about one of Luigi's leather cases -- would that help? How about building a case out of some thin neoprene wetsuit material? I know it'd be a kludge, but if skillfully done, might solve the problem for some people.

JC

[marknorton]

Problem is, the 3 components making up the shutter - the shutter itself, the motor and gearbox and the shutter lock are all screwed directly onto the front casting with (respectively and from memory) 3 screws, 3 screws and 2 screws. Noise and vibration are transmitted directly to the casting which rings like a bell.

Listen to the shutter out of the camera and it's quiet; the motor is whisper quiet when not under load but the shutter lock is an electromagnet with metal on metal contact. We don't exactly what changes are being made in the new shutter but it would look to be difficult to isolate it from the casting.

My recipe for quietning the thing would be to do away with the shutter lock and mount the shutter and motor on a rigId sub-chassis which is then mounted on compliant mounts onto the casting,

[lars_bergquist]

Is it that bad? Put the M8 on a soft support (nothing that acts like a sounding board), let the selftimer release the shutter and listen to it from a point 2m in front of the camera. That is what the subject hears – not what you hear, with your face pressed against the back of the camera. No, it's not that bad.

The old man from the Age of the Hasselblad 1600

[Hookeye]

Originally Posted by lars_bergquist

Is it that bad?

No, in my opinion it is not at all that bad. I was at a church concert last Friday (Handel's "Brocke's Passion") and shot some frames with the M8. In order to be polite, I asked the people surrounding me to let me know if the sound of the camera disturbed them. It turned out that, if I took care to shoot only during "mezzoforte" or "forte" sections, they could not even hear the sound of the shutter .

[j. borger]

Originally Posted by lars_bergquist

Is it that bad?

Yes it is that bad .... i did not manage to take one single streetphotograph without people looking up and/or noticing the sound in 1,5 year.
It is perhaps not anoying when taking pictures at a wedding or concert.. but if you want to be unnoticed .. the M8 sound is too loud .. especially the rewind!
I had far less issues with the R-D1 in this respect!

[jaapv]

I would tend to disagree with Han, I don't think it is that bad, certainly a DSLR is worse. I would call it decisive rather than loud. Mostly, imo, people notice the shooter/camera instead of the noise. But having said that, shoot an M3 beside an M8 ... well

[j. borger]

Originally Posted by jaapv

I would tend to disagree with Han, I don't think it is that bad, certainly a DSLR is worse. I would call it decisive rather than loud. Mostly, imo, people notice the shooter/camera instead of the noise. But having said that, shoot an M3 beside an M8 ... well

Jaap,

My overall technique did not change when switching from the R-d1 to the M8: and the R-D1 is MUCH quiter...... at least in the perception of people. It has just one click and not that anoying rewind buzz of the M8 which makes people turn around even if you take a picture out of sight standing behind them.
At the momen i do not care very much anymore if people hear or see me when i am taking pictures.
But when you realy want to be unnoticed .. the M8 is not that good a tool .... better than a dslr .. yes ... but worse than the r-d1 and certainly much worse than almost every P&S or cel phone on the market!
So if not getting attention is the ultimate goal .. the M8 is not the best tool on the market ... far from that!

[guy_mancuso]

Well there is always the new shutter upgrade folks too.I know I know but I did play with a M8 with the new shutter and there is certainly a big improvement. Frankly I wish i had it today shooting a corporate meeting with podium speakers. It would be a welcome thing to have since the room noise is the speaker and me shooting. I am going for at least one body upgrade. I just have to have one quiet body. To me the money is a none issue, these are working camera's and they need to be what I need. I

[jaapv]

Originally Posted by j. borger

Jaap,

My overall technique did not change when switching from the R-d1 to the M8: and the R-D1 is MUCH quiter...... at least in the perception of people. It has just one click and not that anoying rewind buzz of the M8 which makes people turn around even if you take a picture out of sight standing behind them.
At the momen i do not care very much anymore if people hear or see me when i am taking pictures.
But when you realy want to be unnoticed .. the M8 is not that good a tool .... better than a dslr .. yes ... but worse than the r-d1 and certainly much worse than almost every P&S or cel phone on the market!
So if not getting attention is the ultimate goal .. the M8 is not the best tool on the market ... far from that!

Han, I still have my Digilux2...

[rweisz]

I've shot close to 20,000 actuations on my M8 and most of it has been in quiet environments (council meetings, hearings, political campaign meetings) and nobody has ever given me a dirty look. I had an Epson RD1 before and it was quieter only in that there is no motor drive, but the shutter itself has a "ping" sound that annoys people more than the M8's low-pitched "thwock". In all the years I've been shooting I found that it's more the pitch/frequency of the shutter than the volume that gets people's attention. As to the "street" shooting aspect, I was a stringer for years, plus an AP stint, and also had more than a few drink-and-bull sessions with a few of the Magnum guys and the fact is that the "street" is generally a noisy place, and open, where shutter sound is normally a non-issue. It's by far the photographer's manner and presence that affects whether he is invisible-inaudible or not.

That having been said I intend to get the shutter done on mine. I have to get a new shutter now because mine is kaflooey, and maybe the slower one will last longer, who knows? Just on the basis of the noise, I wouldn't bother. But going back to the Epson RD1 I wish Leica would have kept the thumb lever and made the motor an add-on.

[guy]

Originally Posted by lars_bergquist

Is it that bad? Put the M8 on a soft support (nothing that acts like a sounding board), let the selftimer release the shutter and listen to it from a point 2m in front of the camera. That is what the subject hears – not what you hear, with your face pressed against the back of the camera. No, it's not that bad.

The old man from the Age of the Hasselblad 1600

Sorry, I think it's that bad too... It draws attention, especially in quiet settings. I've had several comments about it. It's louder than many SLRs, and the quality of the noise is unusual enough that it tends to turn heads. It nearly ruined one shoot where the guy next to me was shooting a Canon DSLR that was almost silent by comparison. This is supposed to be a forte of the M series, so I really applaud the fact that Leica are addressing it with their upgrade (though of course in my opinion it ought to have been there from the start). If you're happy with yours, maybe you've got a magically quiet one!

[terrycioni]

Originally Posted by lars_bergquist

Is it that bad? Put the M8 on a soft support (nothing that acts like a sounding board), let the selftimer release the shutter and listen to it from a point 2m in front of the camera. That is what the subject hears – not what you hear, with your face pressed against the back of the camera. No, it's not that bad.

The old man from the Age of the Hasselblad 1600

Agreed. I didn't realize this until I was near another M8 shooter in an NOT exceedingly noisy environment and I had to strain to hear the 8 fire. Of course it could just be my hearing, but that was enough to give me the incentive to test it with a few friends I know have good hearing - apparently it is not as intrusive as I thought and not enough noise to spend a 800 Euro's on changing.

Best To All. Terry.

[rweisz]

Originally Posted by guy

It draws attention, especially in quiet settings. I've had several comments about it. It's louder than many SLRs, and the quality of the noise is unusual enough that it tends to turn heads. It nearly ruined one shoot where the guy next to me was shooting a Canon DSLR that was almost silent by comparison.

Completely the opposite of my experience and anyone I know who shoots an M8, a few of them even professionally. Either your M8 is exceptionally loud or that Canon was exceptionally quiet or both, or maybe has something to do with what frequencies your hearing is more sensitive to. I ran into Costa Manos some time back and he just laughed when I mentioned the hoopla over the M8 shutter noise. Said something about people not wanting to wake up there sleeping cats and dogs, not sure what he meant by it. Anyway that was before the upgrade announcement and I haven't spoken to him since so I don't know if he's getting it or not.

[chris_tribble]

Terry, Guy, others... you may not have noticed the correspondence in another thread. Check this: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-...tml#post501412
... It indicates that some of our problems are going to be solved without having to do the "upgrade"...

Best

[j. borger]

Originally Posted by guy

This is supposed to be a forte of the M series, so I really applaud the fact that Leica are addressing it with their upgrade ....

Agree completely .. the fact Leica tries to improve it and is adressing the issue says it all ........ they would not feel the need to do so if the camera was real silent at the moment.....

[j. borger]

Originally Posted by chris_tribble

Terry, Guy, others... you may not have noticed the correspondence in another thread. Check this: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-...tml#post501412
... It indicates that some of our problems are going to be solved without having to do the "upgrade"...

Best

Thanks for the pointer .. the silent mode idea would do it for me.. would love that feature!

[jaapv]

Originally Posted by j. borger

Agree completely .. the fact Leica tries to improve it and is adressing the issue says it all ........ they would not feel the need to do so if the camera was real silent at the moment.....

Or it could be like the famous Rolls Royce joke:
Marketing: at 100 MpH the only thing you hear is the ticking of the clock

Engineer: Must do something about that d**n clock....

[gravastar]

Originally Posted by chris_tribble

Terry, Guy, others... you may not have noticed the correspondence in another thread. Check this: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-...tml#post501412
... It indicates that some of our problems are going to be solved without having to do the "upgrade"...

Best

That's excellent news to know that they're looking at the possibility. I suspect psychoacoustics has a lot to do with how noticeable the sound of the M8 is. For example, if the shutter noise was not followed immediately by the whirr of the recocking motor then the sound would appear to be a lot less intrusive. If a person is not listening and is concentrating on something else then the intial shutter sound is unlikely to be objectionable. By the time their brain has been alerted and hearing perception "sharpened" the sound is over. But if the shutter then recocks with no delay it's very noticeable while the auditory system is in it's heightened state.

Perhaps in evaluating a modified M8 with delayed recocking this effect needs to be taken into account. You shouldn't "prime" people by asking them which is louder - you have to use the camera while their attention is diverted and afterwards ask it it was intrusive.

I've had such an experience when using the M4 with 1/30 shutter speeds and less. People don't appear to register the intial shutter sound but the slow escapement running down afterwards - that's what causes heads to turn.

Bob.

[guy]

Originally Posted by rweisz

Completely the opposite of my experience and anyone I know who shoots an M8, a few of them even professionally. Either your M8 is exceptionally loud or that Canon was exceptionally quiet or both, or maybe has something to do with what frequencies your hearing is more sensitive to. I ran into Costa Manos some time back and he just laughed when I mentioned the hoopla over the M8 shutter noise. Said something about people not wanting to wake up there sleeping cats and dogs, not sure what he meant by it. Anyway that was before the upgrade announcement and I haven't spoken to him since so I don't know if he's getting it or not.

Hmm... my mileage really differs from that!

I wonder if I do have a loud one. I don't have a frame of reference: no-one else I know has an M8. The Canon really was a lot quieter, but I gather it's a particularly quiet model. By comparison, my M8 is pretty much exactly as loud as my D200... maybe a bit louder. FWIW, my hearing's pretty good: certainly better than my eyesight

[gravastar]

Originally Posted by guy

Hmm... my mileage really differs from that!

I wonder if I do have a loud one. I don't have a frame of reference: no-one else I know has an M8. The Canon really was a lot quieter, but I gather it's a particularly quiet model. By comparison, my M8 is pretty much exactly as loud as my D200... maybe a bit louder. FWIW, my hearing's pretty good: certainly better than my eyesight

If he was shooting with a Canon 1DMk3 then it has a special "silent mode" where the mirror return and shutter cocking is delayed until you release the shutter button. Probably the 1DsMk3 also has this. It works very very well indeed and all you hear is the "snick" of the shutter until you let go of the release after you have taken the picture. In comparison the standard mode sounds loud.

Bob.