Elusive M9 with AF?

[peter55]

Well the OP is not alone. I like manual focusing. It takes skill and my reward is an image looking just the way I wanted it and created using my sensors. My eyes and hands.

I have the AF Canon EOS system, perhaps $30,000 in camera bodies and lenses. This was all purchased from a lack of experience and in a time when I thought AF was the way to go. Probably much like the majority of people. However, now speaking as a hobbiest I very greatly prefere my manual focusing Leica M5 and all 5 of my older Leitz lenses. I also use these very same lenses on an Epson R-D1 and would simply love to own an M8.

Heck I'm so accustomed to my manual equipment that I'm confident I could match anything my 1Ds Mark II, XSi, 20D, XT and original Digital Rebel can do with my 24L, 35L 50 f/1.4, 85L, 135L. All except the Bokeh at f/1.2 from my 85L. Perhaps if I had a Noctolux then I could even do that.

I admit I keep my Canon EOS system because I also use the 800mm f/5.6 and 500mm F/4.5 Sigma APO lenses for birding. Also I have the 15mm f/2.5 EOS lens for wide. But I am ready to get rid of all of it now and keep only the M system.

I am leaving out my 6 "L" zoom's from the discusion because Leica does not make zooms in M mount. But all my EOS zoom's are large and heavy any way and I use them only sometimes for my hobby and fun photography. But the images I get from them are certainly no better than the M system prime lenses.

I also invested heavily in the Nikon and Pentax systems in my search for my style. In the end it was the camera with which originally I started out with, my simple Richo KR-5 and a small handfull of manual lenses that held sway. As I learned on manual equipment and eventually realised I enjoyed their simplicity the most. The image quality was always good.

So basically I wasted a lot of money in ignorance chasing the SLR/DSLR AF systems. The SLR/DSLR for me is a washout. Heavy, noisy and big! Very important for me is the lack of a mirror flipping up and then down in the rangefinder camera design. I find that the mirror moving is like the way I anticipate and endure the recoil of my rifles. I'm free of that with my rangefinder cameras. Nice and calm, silent and steady is my M5 camera and my M system R-D1.

The M system is what I have finally came to appreciate. Small, light in weight, silent, ease of use, no mirror recoil and with excellent image quality. The mechanical properties are on the surface and it is my knowledge of them and of photography in understanding f stop, shuter speed and white balance EV compensation and visual and hand skill in using the rangefinder camera to focus my manual lenses and the quality of my Leitz lenses - all of this will get me the images I want. That's it in a nutshell.

[caparobertsan]

I say no to AF!! What is point using M system??? Sure It is much harder to produce other Japanese maker BUT Don`t we enjoy whole process of making nice photo with M system?

I want Leica to continue perfect M8 and If they reach to the limit then release M9! But Full size CCD is the must! specially for M user.

Thanks

[woodyspedden]

Originally Posted by marknorton

I'm quite sure Leica would like to compete with Hasselblad after the Imacon "betrayal". Revenge, as they say, is a dish best served cold.

Oh Mark

I will show my ignorance by not knowing about this particular phrase, but it is the best. I will cherish it for a long, long time.

Best

Woody

[lanetomlane]

I agree with 'caparobertsan' in that Leica should continue developement of the Digital Range Finder for traditional photography using manual focus, and certainly a full frame sensor would be a big plus at some point.

However, I also feel there is a need for the DSLR with AF for certain applications. I enjoy wildlife photography, but would never consider taking the M-System to Africa, or on the recent trip I made to Galapagos.

Professionally I'm involved with aviation, where again the M-System is 'just not the right tool' for the job. I love using the M and much prefer it over other systems I have for quality of build, end results and pure creativity; but I also realise there are 'horses for courses' and that one type of camera cannot be expected to be suitable for every application.

The DSLR with AF and motor drive produces some wonderful results in difficult situations but to me it's playing the percentages (if you take a 1000 shots there has to be 3 or 4 keepers), whereas with the M one has total control of the outcome from the time the camera is taken out of the bag.

Just my 2cents worth. Regards, Tom

Photography by Tom Lane

[jrc]

I assume that most people talking about AF Leica are referring to the R system, where some move toward autofocus is necessary. Even MF cameras have it now.

M autofocus would be harder, if not impossible, to accomplish, but focus confirmation is probably do-able.

JC

[caparobertsan]

I think there is no way Leica can compete with Japanese maker. Canon, I think the best for fast AF photography. SO let Canon/Nikon develop those area. Leica should continue to do what they do best!
And they should never ever compete with Japanese maker. I think they should work together(Panasonic isn`t really expert in this,,,). They should have asked help from Nikon(more traditional than Canon which is similar to Leica.) If they try to compete, they are going to get crashed! I am sure Nikon can make D-rangefinder but M-mount. Then what is going to happen???? SO as Canon or Sony(with Zeiss-Ikon!!!) Although, I don`t mind that to see anothe M-D-rangefinder. But If that happen Leica won`t be around..... I don`t want that to happen!

[diogenis]

Originally Posted by biglouis

I never understand this AF thing. How the *&$! would you make an existing Leica M-lens AF?

I mean, you'd have to modify the entire Leica M lens range or am I missing something?

The only way I can see Leica finding such a change economic is if they hand production over to someone like Panasonic and get it done in Thailand by hand and robots.

LouisB

yes if you followed the Japanese tradition, fixing motors in the lens for AF.
The idea to preserve tradition and all the lens collection intact would be to create some kind of hybrid focus system, which would still preserve the manual focusing ring, but would compensate electronically for loss of accuracy thats observed in lens greater than 75mm.
And again, not all are affected by that, but if you use the m8 for tele photos then you get the mentioned accuracy error, no matter how good your vision is.
Since the error is very small, and so is the correction movement (you still do the job manually), it could have been not difficult to introduce such a system

[sdai]

Originally Posted by AlanG

I think that most Ferraris and many other high performance sports cars are purchased with F1 type paddle shifters not with traditional manual transmissions.

I agree, this is not a good analogy and I forgot you can put the paddle shifters in auto mode too. LOL

[sdai]

Originally Posted by zlatkob

I'm not sure I understand this thread. Is it against innovation?

This is beyond innovation, it's reinventing the wheel.

[NB23]

Is this thread against innovation? You don't remember all the M users raging for a digital M, do you? A M8 is all about innovation. But some of you just don't get it.

And there is always Canikontaxonympus for a camera OTHER then a rangerfinder. Doh!

[jaapv]

Originally Posted by caparobertsan

I think there is no way Leica can compete with Japanese maker. Canon, I think the best for fast AF photography. SO let Canon/Nikon develop those area. Leica should continue to do what they do best!

Hmmm......... Canon got bashed for bad autofocus for all its DSLRs up until about three years ago. Even the 1Ds3 has gotten some negative feedback for alleged autofocus problems.

[rob_x2004]

Im just waiting to se how the framelines will be implemented on the M9SLR. Or is this AF going to drive the rangefinder unit too? Cool stuff. I remember when the first man stepped on Mars.....

[luigi bertolotti]

In tech terms, if Leica would come out in 2009-10 with a "M9" with a really new design, there wouldn't be problems to have AF, even maintaining M bayonet fro backward compatibility... the problem is WHETHER adding or not such a feature, and I think it depends eniterely on the future development of R line (which, logically would require a new model BEFORE a new RF model) : imho, if a possible new R would have AF (i.e., a camera to "compete" with Ni-Ca DSLRs) they could continue to maintain MF on RF line, even if with something new in the RF assembly (like electronic confirmation or so); things could be different if the speculated "R10" would play a different role, more close to some kind of Medium Format DSLR, so positioning RF line as the "quick action" camera, a role in which AF fits well.

BTW... I never used a AF camera... and I don't know, literally, if the many professionals who use DSLRs do use regularly AF, or use it only when "compelled"... do anyone have some trustable info on this ?

[jaapv]

In tech terms there could be AF with existing lenses, for instance with a moving sensor/ lens mount. There would be some geometrical problems, though, for instance fitting of a motor in a not too large body,and the problem of accomodating the needed movement especially for long lenses. One could conceivably make a hybrid system, where the main focussing is manual and AF is used for fine-tuning the focus.

[vieri]

Originally Posted by jaapv

In tech terms there could be AF with existing lenses, for instance with a moving sensor/ lens mount. There would be some geometrical problems, though, for instance fitting of a motor in a not too large body,and the problem of accomodating the needed movement especially for long lenses. One could conceivably make a hybrid system, where the main focussing is manual and AF is used for fine-tuning the focus.

Jaap, this sound possible in theory but very hard to do in practice - any movement of the focussing ring (except for older lenses with infinity block) would throw the whole system out of whack. To me, if ever Leica wants to make the R and the M AF the best solution is a solution a la Nikon; keep the existing mount format, add electrical contacts for AF-S lenses with motor in the lens and/or add a screw driven system with motor on camera and a screw mechanism in the lens. Old MF lenses will stay MF and keep focussing properly, new lenses will either have an on-board motor or be driven by a motor on camera. Easy and the best of both worlds. As I said in my previous posts, though, the real questions are: will Leica do it? More important, will people want it and buy such a M or R? I think it would be good for the R line, but I'd rather keep the M manual focussing as it is.

[plasticman]

Please no liveview, no electronic viewfinder, and absolutely no autofocus in the M-system!
There are plenty of cameras that can and will do all of these things faster and better. But the niche that's manual focus rangefinder photography, with a heart and soul that's not electronic, is Leica's M-system.
Let's hope they keep it that way!

Mani

[luigi bertolotti]

[quote=jaapv;610760]In tech terms there could be AF with existing lenses, for instance with a moving sensor/ lens mount. ...

Moving lens mount !!! Wasn'it the "Contax' way" ??
(moving the sensor would be a nice idea... but I fear it poses terrible tech problems)

[gwelland]

Henry Ford: “If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.”

Steve Jobs: "It sounds logical to ask customers what they want and then give it to them. But they rarely wind up getting what they really want that way..."

[jaapv]

Originally Posted by vieri

Jaap, this sound possible in theory but very hard to do in practice - any movement of the focussing ring (except for older lenses with infinity block) would throw the whole system out of whack. To me, if ever Leica wants to make the R and the M AF the best solution is a solution a la Nikon; keep the existing mount format, add electrical contacts for AF-S lenses with motor in the lens and/or add a screw driven system with motor on camera and a screw mechanism in the lens. Old MF lenses will stay MF and keep focussing properly, new lenses will either have an on-board motor or be driven by a motor on camera. Easy and the best of both worlds. As I said in my previous posts, though, the real questions are: will Leica do it? More important, will people want it and buy such a M or R? I think it would be good for the R line, but I'd rather keep the M manual focussing as it is.

As Luigi said, Contax did just that, but I agree, it is an engineering nightmare on a RF in the M shape.

If Leica would bring out an AF camera using M lenses, or at least the optical cell of M lenses it might well be a fine camera, maybe even a bestseller, but it would certainly not be a Leica M camera any more and not worthy of the name M9. The Leica A-1 maybe?

[luigi bertolotti]

Originally Posted by plasticman

Please no liveview, no electronic viewfinder, and absolutely no autofocus in the M-system! (*)
There are plenty of cameras that can and will do all of these things faster and better. But the niche that's manual focus rangefinder photography, with a heart and soul that's not electronic, is Leica's M-system.
Let's hope they keep it that way!

Mani

To be clear... I like to imagine / speculate about those developments... but me too DO NOT WANT them on M line... I think they can make a significant new RF camera WITHOUT adding that (*) damned features... there are many areas in which the M8 (anyway, a FINE camera) can, in the future, evolve without losing its heritage.