Leica upgrade warranty reduction

[imported_reinierv]

Originally Posted by ArtZ

BS

ask your local consumer organization

[stevelap]

Originally Posted by ArtZ

Directive 1999/44/EC, May 1999 from the European Parliament stipulates that by 1st January 2002 all member states must have altered their legislation to comply with new consumer laws. These new laws will ensure that all new consumer goods, including cars, carry at least a two-year warranty and used consumer goods have a minimum of a one-year warranty......If you can find one with less than two years, I'll buy you lunch or diner at photokina

'Nikon European Service Warranty
1. THIS IS THE EUROPEAN ONE YEAR LIMITED WARRANTY (VALID IN THE AUSTRIA, BELGIUM, CZECH REPUBLIC, DENMARK, FINLAND, FRANCE, GERMANY, GREECE, HUNGARY, ITALY, NETHERLANDS, NORWAY, POLAND, RUSSIA, SPAIN, SWEDEN, SWITZERLAND, UNITED KINGDOM). YOU MUST PRESENT THIS FORM TOGETHER WITH PROOF OF PURCHASE AND PROOF OF PURCHASE DATE (BILL OF SALE) TO OBTAIN WARRANTY SERVICE.

2. YOUR NIKON EQUIPMENT IS GUARANTEED AGAINST ANY MANUFACTURING DEFECTS FOR ONE FULL YEAR FROM THE DATE OF THE ORIGINAL PURCHASE.

5. This service warranty does not affect the consumer's statutory rights under applicable national laws in force, nor the consumer's right against the dealer arising from their sales/purchase contract.

Local Warranty
• Your Nikon equipment is guaranteed against any manufacturing defects for one year from the date of purchase

Cameras distributed by Nikon UK Limited and purchased in the United Kingdom or Republic of Ireland after September 1st 2007 (and during the duration of the scheme) qualify for a free one year extension to the Nikon Manufacturer's Warranty, if the purchase is registered with Nikon UK Limited within 30 days of purchase.

As this is a Nikon UK & Republic of Ireland initiative it is only supported by authorised UK & Republic of Ireland repair facilities.

All lenses, accessories and scanners will continue to have the advantage of a one year warranty.

Your statutory rights are not affected. '


If you buy a new Nikon lens today in the UK, a member of the European Union, the included warranty card will be valid for one year. Lunch might just be on you, unless you want to shelter under the 'your statutory rights are not affected' umbrella clause .

[akiralx]

Originally Posted by imported_reinierv

The rule in europe is to guarentee you a certain lifetime of a product. If the product with an expected lifetime of say 4 years, breaks down after 2, you have the right of 50% of the actual repair/replacement cost (unless the by the manufacturer determined guarentee period is ofcourse 2 years)

it is very nice that that this is in the lawbooks in europe...now go to a shop and try getting it. They say: guarentee has ended after a year so bad luck for you. You useally need a lawyer to get it and nobody takes the trouble because it will cost more...

In the UK most retailers will indeed try (and usually succeed) as part of their policies to fob off consumers by telling them that they only had a 1 year warranty and should have purchased an extended warranty - but they will usually concede quickly after receiving a claim via the Small Claims Track of the county court, because they would almost certainly lose and it isn't worth the cost of fighting.

In the UK that doesn't need a lawyer, it can be done online cheaply here:

https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/csmco2/index.jsp

[ArtZ]

Originally Posted by stevelap

'Nikon European Service Warranty
1. THIS IS THE EUROPEAN ONE YEAR LIMITED WARRANTY (VALID IN THE AUSTRIA, BELGIUM, CZECH REPUBLIC, DENMARK, FINLAND, FRANCE, GERMANY, GREECE, HUNGARY, ITALY, NETHERLANDS, NORWAY, POLAND, RUSSIA, SPAIN, SWEDEN, SWITZERLAND, UNITED KINGDOM). YOU MUST PRESENT THIS FORM TOGETHER WITH PROOF OF PURCHASE AND PROOF OF PURCHASE DATE (BILL OF SALE) TO OBTAIN WARRANTY SERVICE.

2. YOUR NIKON EQUIPMENT IS GUARANTEED AGAINST ANY MANUFACTURING DEFECTS FOR ONE FULL YEAR FROM THE DATE OF THE ORIGINAL PURCHASE.

5. This service warranty does not affect the consumer's statutory rights under applicable national laws in force, nor the consumer's right against the dealer arising from their sales/purchase contract.

Local Warranty
• Your Nikon equipment is guaranteed against any manufacturing defects for one year from the date of purchase

Cameras distributed by Nikon UK Limited and purchased in the United Kingdom or Republic of Ireland after September 1st 2007 (and during the duration of the scheme) qualify for a free one year extension to the Nikon Manufacturer's Warranty, if the purchase is registered with Nikon UK Limited within 30 days of purchase.

As this is a Nikon UK & Republic of Ireland initiative it is only supported by authorised UK & Republic of Ireland repair facilities.

All lenses, accessories and scanners will continue to have the advantage of a one year warranty.

Your statutory rights are not affected. '


If you buy a new Nikon lens today in the UK, a member of the European Union, the included warranty card will be valid for one year. Lunch might just be on you, unless you want to shelter under the 'your statutory rights are not affected' umbrella clause .

Steve,

An EC Directive is not a law by itself. EC Directives have to be translated into "local" Law. For this reason, the Europen Parliament fixes a later date to give time to every Country to adapt their "local" Law to the Directive. This Directive 1999/44/EC was voted in 1999 and should apply to all European Countries on January 1st 2002.

In France (we're always late), this Directive was "translated" into the French Law in February 17th 2005 with effect on February 19th 2005. All brand new goods sell in France since February 19th 2005 are covered by 2 years warranty. All second hand (used) goods will be covered by 1 year warranty. This doesn't apply to private vendors.

Between January 1st 2002 and February 17th 2005, the Commission could sanction France for the non-respect of Directive 1999/44/EC.

I agree with you that some manufactures doesn't play the game. Nikon France says also that warranty is only 1 year but, since February 17th 2005, it's against the French Law and, in consecuence, an abusive clause.

If the problem you encounter is defined as in Article 2 "Conformity with the contract" and the vendor/manufacturer refuses to repair the damage as defined in Article 3 "Rights of the consumer" you can take legal action against the vendor.

In France, you don't need to take a lawyer. You can get support and advice from Consummer Organisations but it's not necessary.

Besides, there's a Governmental Office called "Direction Générale de la Concurrence, de la Consommation et de la Repression des Fraudes" which will take legal action against that vendor and/or manufacturer in name of the "Republique Française". You won't get any benefit from this, except mediation -vendors are usually very scared of this Organism, but if the vendor does not respect the French Law, he will be prosecuted.

Last month a neighbour (who is a friend) sent his Nikon D80 bought at the end 2006 because the LCD doesn't turn on and it has just been repaired under warranty. No problem whatsoever from Nikon.
.
.

[stevelap]

Indeed, and over here too the ' statutory rights' clause and the small claims procedure recommended by Alex enables some pressure to be brought to bear, if necessary, without breaking the bank.

I would say though that the majority of manufacturer warranty offerings are currently still likely to be for one year only, although that is changing slowly.

[ennjott]

Originally Posted by imported_reinierv

If the product with an expected lifetime of say 4 years, breaks down after 2, you have the right of 50% of the actual repair/replacement cost

That is indeed BS.
At least in Germany it's really pretty simple, the dealer (and NOT the manufacturer) is liable for 24 months in respect to the end user. After 6 months, the proof of burden of the defectiveness of the product on delivery, as Michael said, is on the side of the consumer.

Nonetheless, many dealers try to tell people they need to contact the manufacturer. Less work and costs for them.

[imported_reinierv]

as you already have read probably, others think and expirience differently...

just study consumer rights just a bit and you will be shocked on what rights you have retail will simply deny unless you come with some backup from some larger organisation

actually it is amazing that they have so succesfully succeeded in covering up this right that people even don't believe they have it...

[mjh]

Originally Posted by ArtZ

In other words, that's called surrogation: The dealer will claim liability againt his distributor and the distributor against the manufacturer.

Sure, but for the consumer that’s of little concern. You can claim liability against the dealer (and nobody else), and how the dealer recovers his expenses is his concern.

But the point is what liability covers, namely “the conformity of the goods with the contract“ – in other words, that you get a fully working piece of equipment. When five months after purchase some part breaks, it is assumed by default that the goods were already defective (though not necessarily visibly) at the time of purchase, and your dealer would have to prove it was not – most dealers won’t bother, especially since they can (as you pointed out) claim liability against the manufacturer. After the first six months, the burden of proof is on the consumer, rendering liability somewhat pointless.

The warranty granted by the manufacturer may be shorter than two years, but it will usually cover much more. If the shutter of your camera fails after 11 months, your chances of proving it was defective to begin with are slim, but the manufacturer will probably repair the camera under warranty anyway, as the warranty usually covers defects occurring after the time of purchase, provided they have to external cause. If the warranty granted is limited to one year, then the repair of all defects occurring later than 12 months you will most likely have to cover yourself.

This is covered in some depth in a Wikipedia article (Gewährleistung – Wikipedia): “Die Gewährleistung oder Mängelhaftung bestimmt Rechtsfolgen und Ansprüche, die dem Käufer im Rahmen eines Kaufvertrags zustehen, bei dem der Verkäufer eine mangelhafte Ware oder Sache geliefert hat. Auch beim Werkvertrag gibt es eine Gewährleistung für Mängel des hergestellten Werks. Von der gesetzlich vorgeschriebenen Gewährleistung ist die Garantie zu unterscheiden; diese ist insofern freiwillig, als es keine gesetzliche Verpflichtung zur Abgabe eines Garantieversprechens gibt.

In der Europäischen Union bestimmt die Richtlinie 1999/44/EG Mindeststandards für die Gewährleistung beim gewerblichen Verkauf an private Endverbraucher. Insbesondere darf die Verjährungsfrist 2 Jahre ab Lieferung nicht unterschreiten und innerhalb der ersten 6 Monate muss die Beweislast in der Regel beim Verkäufer liegen. Die Gewährleistungsansprüche bestehen gegenüber dem Verkäufer, nicht dem Hersteller der Ware.”

[jimmy pro]

This is a very informative thread for us who maybe only know the laws in America. Plus it's refreshing to read foreigners complaining about there own countries for a change instead of ours

[lct]

Originally Posted by ArtZ

..If the problem you encounter is defined as in Article 2 "Conformity with the contract" and the vendor/manufacturer refuses to repair the damage as defined in Article 3 "Rights of the consumer" you can take legal action against the vendor...

Lack of conformity is not easy to prove in practice. As far as French law is concerned purchasers are protected by a 2-year legal warranty in case of inherent vice as well.

[sdai]

Originally Posted by fotografr

Name another camera manufacturer that gives a 2-year warranty on their digital bodies to begin with.

Nikon offers 2 years DSLR warranty in Canada.

[lct]

Originally Posted by mjh

...the point is what liability covers, namely “the conformity of the goods with the contract“ – in other words, that you get a fully working piece of equipment. When five months after purchase some part breaks, it is assumed by default that the goods were already defective (though not necessarily visibly) at the time of purchase, and your dealer would have to prove it was not – most dealers won’t bother, especially since they can (as you pointed out) claim liability against the manufacturer. After the first six months, the burden of proof is on the consumer, rendering liability somewhat pointless. ...

You mean in German law? Poor German buyers then. In French law, consumers are covered by a 2-years legal warranty for lack of conformity as well as inherent vice, nothing less. Furthermore, in case of inherent vice, the 2-years warranty does not start at the date of purchase but when the vice is discovered by the buyer.

[ArtZ]

Originally Posted by lct

Lack of conformity is not easy to prove in practice. As far as French law is concerned purchasers are protected by a 2-year legal warranty in case of inherent vice as well.

Let's take our M8s as an example. If we haven't modified or altered our M8, we haven't drop it, we have use it normally and, with no reason, our M8 stop work properly or doesn't work at all, this will be considerer as "lack of conformity" by the French Law. Our M8 will be repaired or replaced.

Now, let's talk again about two real issues...

Shutter? Did I hear shutter? Did you say shutter?...

Well, I'm not in a hurry to upgrade my shutter because if there's an inherent vice (we call it "vice caché") and my shutter bites the dust, it should be replaced for free even after the 2-year legal warranty. It's basically same thing that happened with Digilux-2 sensors.

And I believe SDHC support is a similar issue but...

Leica has announced M8 will be compatible with SDHC cards in a future firmware update. When I bought my first M8 in June 2007, Leica said I can use some 4GB SD cards (list available on Leica's web site) but it was also stated on Leica's web site (and confirmed by the vendor) that they were working to deliver full SDHC support in a future firmware.

If Leica need to replace some hardware inside the M8 for SDHC compatibility, could we call that "lack of conformity"?

I guess this is a good example how "lack of conformity" can be sometimes hard to prove.

Originally Posted by lct

You mean in German law? Poor German buyers then. In French law, consumers are covered by a 2-years legal warranty for lack of conformity as well as inherent vice, nothing less. Furthermore, in case of inherent vice, the 2-years warranty does not start at the date of purchase but when the vice is discovered by the buyer.

This should be the same in Germany. The 2-years legal warranty for lack of conformity as well as inherent vice is an EEC Directive and it should have been transposed into every EEC Country Law on January 1st 2002. We did it in France on February 17th 2005.
.

[stevelap]

Originally Posted by ArtZ

This should be the same in Germany. The 2-years legal warranty for lack of conformity as well as inherent vice is an EEC Directive and it should have been transposed into every EEC Country Law on January 1st 2002. We did it in France on February 17th 2005.
.

Ah, France, champion of all things European but well known for obeying those EU directives they agree with and totally ignoring those that they don't

Whilst we Brits of course, who always do as we're told, immediately incorporate all EU directives into the statue book

[ArtZ]

Originally Posted by stevelap

Ah, France, champion of all things European but well known for obeying those EU directives they agree with and totally ignoring those that they don't

Whilst we Brits of course, who always do as we're told, immediately incorporate all EU directives into the statue book

... the good thing is I'm not French

BTW, I agree about vision of French politics... but Bristish are not better.

[lct]

Originally Posted by ArtZ

...The 2-years legal warranty for lack of conformity as well as inherent vice is an EEC Directive and it should have been transposed into every EEC Country Law on January 1st 2002...

With respect, not exactly. The concept of 'inherent vice' is unknown in the Directive you refer to.
As often in European law, the EU concept of 'lack of conformity' is so vague that some countries like France did not change much their legislation and others like Germany or the UK regulated EU requirements in a specific way after the directive was transposed.
See for instance http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/cons_i...7_EN_final.pdf.
In French law you're referring to, lack of conformity and inherent vice ('vice caché') already existed before the Directive was transposed and still do as you know. The only thing that changed there, basically, was the application of the 2-year legal warranty to both defects, which is a welcome simplification.
But neither Germany nor any other country are bound by the concept of inherent vice because it simply does not exist in the Directive. Hence perhaps the origin of what Michael suggested above, but i know nothing about German law sorry.

[ArtZ]

Originally Posted by lct

With respect, not exactly. The concept of 'inherent vice' is unknown in the Directive you refer to.
As often in European law, the EU concept of 'lack of conformity' is so vague that some countries like France did not change much their legislation and others like Germany or the UK regulated EU requirements in a specific way after the directive was transposed.
See for instance http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/cons_i...7_EN_final.pdf.
In French law you're referring to, lack of conformity and inherent vice ('vice caché') already existed before the Directive was transposed and still do as you know. The only thing that changed there, basically, was the application of the 2-year legal warranty to both defects, which is a welcome simplification.
But neither Germany nor any other country are bound by the concept of inherent vice because it simply does not exist in the Directive. Hence perhaps the origin of what Michael suggested above, but i know nothing about German law sorry.

Thank you for this clarification.

I didn't know that Directive 1999/44/EC had been transposed into national law diffently.

I know (and knew) that warranty in France is 2 year since 2005 but also for inherent vice and I assumed it was the same in all EEC Countries.

In fact, I'm in the middle of a legal procedure for "vice caché" concerning a flat with a terrace I bought in Paris last February for rent. The previous owner didn't informed me about a "vice caché" that she couldn´t have ignored (she hide it). She must pay now the reparation (over 20.000 €) but also the monthly rent I would have perceived from my tenant since February till the end of the restoration. Besides, she would have to pay also all justice expenses plus an indemnization for "prejudice moral".
.