An Open Letter to Leica

[padraigm]

I know the topics that I address in this post have been discussed many times on this forum and others, but I decided I wanted to add my 2 cents and maybe have the issues with the M8 a little more focused. Or at least this is just my rant and hopefully will be another push for Leica to do something.


First off I really think Leica needs to be more communicative about future upgrades. I mean with the price we all paid they need to tickle us a little and be more concrete about what their future intentions really are. I believe they need to address what is possible, likely and very unlikely. They read endless speculation on these forums and see what people want and expect. For such a relatively small niche of high paying customers I just believe we deserve a little more individualized attention. Fine, the quieter shutter is all good, but in the scheme of things is rather insignificant and in my opinion unless the issue of that horrible noise after the click is also addressed this is a really lame upgrade considering how long the M8 has been on the market. Granted there is a two year warranty involved, but really what is possible in the future.
ISO noise, OK with some practice its possible to get this usable. At 1250 and above I generally don’t mind putting in the extra effort to optimize the exposure to try and make it work. But when I see noise at 640…well come on now.. and for those of us who also have a DSLR the comparisons between can be just heartbreaking and painful. I don’t know how many times I have used both my 5D and M8 and feel sick to my stomach at the difference in noise at medium ISO values.

So Leica, is a new sensor a likely possibility?? In my opinion if the sensor is not upgradable, any other upgrade other than firmware is useless and a waste of money. Without the possibility of a sensor upgrade this equipment will fast become so far behind the curve that an M9 will have to be developed\ and released. If this is the case everyone would be better to save there upgrade money for the newer model. Bottom line is if I know there is going to be viable upgrades then I have no problem parting with my cash along the way.

I love the M8 in many ways and want this system to really work out. So much so I am willing to spend good money on it. I think we all have proven we are willing to put our money on the table for a product and photographic philosophy we believe in. But Leica help us out here.. What is realistic to expect for this generation of M camera and if our expectations and needs are only likely to be seen in the next generation then tell us?

….Talk to me baby

[zlatkob]

I'm not sure that's realistic. Discussion of future intentions can kill sales of present products. Whether it's a sensor upgrade or a new model, it's probably in their interest to keep quiet until the product is ready to roll out.

[luigi bertolotti]

I understand your mood and share part of your sentiments, but I also understand that Leica CANNOT speak in advance of their future releases on the RF line, at least not in too precise terms :
1) Sensor tech is not under their direct control: shall they to speak of something that ingreat part doesn't depend on THEIR schedules ?
2) Imagine the say us : "a future sensor shall arrive in x months... upgrading M8 SHALL be possible or "... upgrading SHALL NOT be possible": in both cases M8 sales simply would STOP.

For lenses, is less dramatic, and infact something more "emerges"; anyway, they are a Company that has to try to SELL the products they can sell NOW: that's a general rule in business; we will see, and we users will evaluate how they have treated their loyal base of customers.

[jimmy pro]

Fotokina's in a coupla months. Leica's not gonna change what they already got planned. My advice is save your energy for bitching at them after Fotokina. JMHO.

[padraigm]

True guys those are all very good points and I understand them, I certainly don't need deadlines but some clarity of what is possible would be nice, or that there is an effort in some areas. I truly think that if a sensor is absolutely not in the offering for the M8 then we have all dropped enough money on this product to warrant knowing this. With no effort or plans for a sensor upgrade to this product, the M8, then any other upgrade is purely window dressing and simply not worth it. Having a product already on the street for two years should mean they have some idea of what is possible and what is not, and they certainly know that many people wish and expect to have one. We deserve to know because many of us have and will be loyal customers and many have proved themselves loyal throughout all the ups and downs at the beginning of this camera. If anything, customers have bended and accommodated Leica in may ways to make their product work for them. Well I am going to say it here LET US KNOW LEICA the loyalty goes both ways.
We are all in a unique position when compared to the likes of Canon and Nikon as we can say with certainty that they are working on improvements for the next model and we know there will be one. For us there is just ambiguity...

[rwfreund]

Hey,
We have kicked Leica around for good or ill for the past 20 months or so.
Maybe for a change we ought to go kick around Nikon for their lens range or maybe Sinar for whatever pleases you.
Leica I am sure has heard it all, and either they will do "enough" or they won't. Of course "enough" must be interpreted in terms of their corporate survival as a camera maker, and not necessarily every whim that you see here.
If you would like a history about when to announce product, please look up the history of Osborne computer.
The right time to disclose is that time which is most advantageous to the announcer.
-bob

[honcho]

I think it may be a little unrealistic to expect Leica to provide firm answers to most of the questions here, however, this I agree with 100%....:

Originally Posted by padraigm

.......... But when I see noise at 640…well come on now.. and for those of us who also have a DSLR the comparisons between can be just heartbreaking and painful. I don’t know how many times I have used both my 5D and M8 and feel sick to my stomach at the difference in noise at medium ISO values.

I currently use Nikon D3's professionally (I rely upon sales of my images, otherwise I don't eat). As much as I would love to be able to use an M8 to provide my daily bread, I can't.
I can't use a Leica M8 in my business because the M8 cannot compete with the D3 on any level, for my needs. It's as simple as that.

From my perspective it would be folly to outlay on equipment that is as flawed as the Leica M8 when better equipment is available for comparable cost, sometimes much less.

Leica have found a niche for sales of their M8 within a relatively small group who will remain loyal because their finances allow them to indulge. As time goes by and new cameras are released by other manufacturers, the M8 is becoming even more of an indulgence it seems.

Even though my heart pulls me one way as a Leica owner, my business head says I'll never be a Leica M8 shooter.

So does my image creator's head: M8 vs D3? No comparison!

[terrycioni]

Originally Posted by honcho

Leica have found a niche for sales of their M8 within a relatively small group who will remain loyal because their finances allow them to indulge. As time goes by and new cameras are released by other manufacturers, the M8 is becoming even more of an indulgence it seems.

Even though my heart pulls me one way as a Leica owner, my business head says I'll never be a Leica M8 shooter.

So does my image creator's head: M8 vs D3? No comparison!

First things first... I own a D3 and an M8, and I don't necessarily agree that on all levels there is no comparison - that is totally simplistic thinking.

I for one am pretty tired of this rather insulting crap and it is crap that owning an M8 is some sort of and I quote 'indulgence' or because finances permit. Simply not the case but nor do I feel it necessary to explain to every Tom, Dick, and Harry why I own an M8 - it should be obvious but in case it is not - it is because it is NOT a SLR.

I like both apples and oranges and find both have their place in my diet - I consistently find oranges more expensive than apples but my finances permit me the indulgence to buy them.... on and on and on.

Regards. Terry.

[Neville Porter]

There could be a lot of to and fro about this subject. That is "What we want and what Leica will do". The simplest sumation is made by the first respondant Zlatkob when he said "I'm not sure that's realistic. Discussion of future intentions can kill sales of present products. Whether it's a sensor upgrade or a new model, it's probably in their interest to keep quiet until the product is ready to roll out."
Frankly no one could be keener than me to know whats next. I am in the M & R camp.
I am just chaffing at the bit to see whats next from Leica. Meanwhile I am concentrating on migrating from PC to Apple where I can run Mac Apps and some specialist PC apps I need for my work enviroment. I note the terrific success of Apple and it could be paralleled that part of their success is the manner in which they anounce product and deliver. No one is keener than the Mac market to know whats comming but you just have to wait.
Mac anounce and deliver when they are ready why shouldnt Leica do the same.
SO THE DEEPER QUESTION IS WHY ARE WE SO WOUND UP AND IMPATIENT ABOUT WHATS NEXT. Is it true that there are few manufactured products that are perfect when compared to their competitors and that there is always some compromise one way or another with any product. So this forum has trawled over the M8 and in hindsight perfection could have been achieved. You know there are no two Stradivarious violins that are the same. Who is complaining. Which is the best etc. Most importantly its afact that no Strad can play by itself. The Artist is everything. So with the current M8 "warts and all" we know its possible to achieve phenominal quality photos. So from here to Photokina why dont we work up our skills and show what we can do as "artists". Concentrate on our skills and not the cameras shortcommings. This means take some shots put them up if the shot is flawed due to an M8 problem say it. Meanwhile watch the positive creative answers from the forum to suggest other ways to work around with the camera or photoshop or other parts of the process to achieve a terrific result.
Meanwhile we may improve our skills and be ready forthe new product to be anounced at Photokina and not sooner?

[Neville Porter]

Honcho may I respectfully say I really disagree with your coments. (Perhaps for your type of Pro Photography the M8s not appropriate. Like sports or macro etc Fair enough your coments will stand.)
As one group of Photographers that use M8s daily for work please read the thread about M8 pro wedding photography. Wow what a positive group of coments. Please read its refreshing stuff. No need of D3s here.
http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-...otography.html

[ho_co]

Originally Posted by Neville Porter

SO THE DEEPER QUESTION IS WHY ARE WE SO WOUND UP AND IMPATIENT ABOUT WHATS NEXT.

Very true, Neville!

Leica doesn't know what kind of sensor is coming a year from now, so they can't say "X is possible" or "X is not possible." Look at the dance they've done on the M8's possible upgradability, for example.

It's nice that we feel close enough to our brand of choice to want to instruct them in better business practices--I bet few businesses in any industry have a clientele which feels as responsible to the manufacturer as we do. However, nothing you or I say about wanting transparency from Leica will or should get them to reveal product ahead of time. What if they announced:

After considering the dSLR market as it exists today and the loyalty we have always held to our customers in attempting to keep their purchases usable and upgradable, it is with regret that we must announce the discontinuance of the Leica R system as we know it. Any future bodies or lenses--SHOULD THEY COME--will not be compatible with what has been sold under the Leicaflex and Leica R names.

And what if a month after making that announcement they hired a new engineer who said, "Hold on, not so fast! I know a way to make a thoroughly modern camera that is completely compatible with our legacy products"?

Leica must keep all routes open; pre-announcements preclude that possibility.

As Einstein said, "Fantasy is better than knowledge--because knowledge is limited."

[delander]

Originally Posted by honcho

Leica have found a niche for sales of their M8 within a relatively small group who will remain loyal because their finances allow them to indulge. As time goes by and new cameras are released by other manufacturers, the M8 is becoming even more of an indulgence it seems.

Even though my heart pulls me one way as a Leica owner, my business head says I'll never be a Leica M8 shooter.

So does my image creator's head: M8 vs D3? No comparison!

Certainly the M8 is a niche and certainly Leica in its effort to move the M series cameras from film to digital has been supported by a relatively small group of enthusiasts who have bought the M8. And I understand that you will never be a Leica M8 shooter but perhaps in the future as a result of those who have supported Leica you will have the opportunity to consider being a Leica M9 or M10 shooter. I dont think that is a bad thing. And I really dont understand why so many people openly wish for the demise of the whole Leica digital M project.

Jeff

[stunsworth]

Originally Posted by honcho

M8 vs D3? No comparison!

I agree. I have no desire to carry a D3 and a series of lenses around all day.

It would be a boring world if we all had identical needs.

[barjohn]

I want to both agree and disagree with some prior posts. First, most sensor manufacturers know what is in their development pipeline and its target delivery date well in advance of it happening and their sales people are calling on potential customers like Leica to keep them informed and hopefully sell them their latest product. Thus, once Leica makes a buy decision they do not what is possible. In some cases they may send sensor manufacturers specifications for a desired sensor and solicit bids on sensors that can meet their specifications. In either case they have quite a bit of advance notice on what is possible within a manufacturing cycle.

Announcing too early can cannibalize existing sales or it may be used to both spur existing sales and future sales. For example, suppose an M9 was going to be the next product and it will be priced at $6k. They could announce it at $6K and then offer discounted price on M8 at $4K. It lowers cost of entry for new RF users that can not afford $6K but want an RF while stimulating the market for the current user to upgrade to the M9. It would create market buzz and keep users from straying elsewhere as the buzz for other products increases. At this point, whatever is in the manufacturing pipeline won't change dramatically. If they don't have an M9 or a new low cost RF I will be surprised if they survive the year as a camera manufacturer. Lens maker maybe, but sales of M8s are very likely on the decline and would drop below the point of profitability rather quickly. The world economy is changing very quickly and even those of us with relatively high incomes (in the upper 1.5%) will think twice before paying Leica prices. For me, the M9 will have to be a significant improvement in image quality (high ISO and FF) and ease of focusing (my eyes just aren't what they used to be and in this income group I am probably not alone). Lacking that I will probably make the switch to the first small SLR that has specs close to those of the D700. However, size alone is not the consideration as weight is also a factor. Everyone talks about not wanting to lug an SLR and lenses around but my current Leica kit (M8, 90 Cron, 40 Cron, 50 Cron, 28 Elmarit, SF 24 and a couple of batteries) weighs 6.5lbs. The Nikon D700 with built in Flash and Nikor 24-120 Zoom ED combination weighs 3.5lbs. Slightly better range of coverage and almost half the weight with a little more bulk. A full 3 stops of better ISO performance, auto focus and no lens changes. Conversely, if I took a D700 plus the following primes: 28/2.8, 35/2, 50/1.8, & 85/1.4 my total weight would be: 4.16lbs. Thus weight wise I would be ahead and the only larger bulk comes in the camera body. If I can live with a zoom instead of autofocus primes I am way ahead. YES LEICA NEEDS TO DO SOMETHING TO STAY IN THE GAME.

[lars_bergquist]

We know that the sensor is upgradeable. After all, Leica recalled the first batch of cameras with the Green Band Disease—and upgraded them with a new improved sensor!

The old man from the Age of Kodachrome I

[padraigm]

There have all been some very good points here and I don't want this thread to delve into the usual M8 vs other manufacture comparisons. My main premise is that after two years on the market with problems that many of which should have been caught before launch, the "investment in the future" is nothing more than a slightly quieter shutter but with a recocking sound that basically negates it. I would rather the recocking sound was delt with. I am stating again and and this is my opinion and I hope Leica is reading this. If there is not going to be a sensor upgrade for the M8 then any other upgrade is practically useless. IF they were to indicate there will be, then I would have no problem investing in the intermediate steps between now and then. Again without the sensor upgrade I just don't see how anything else is worth it. I will either wait for an M9, or if Leica goes under just use it until it quits.

[jimmy pro]

Originally Posted by lars_bergquist

We know that the sensor is upgradeable. After all, Leica recalled the first batch of cameras with the Green Band Disease—and upgraded them with a new improved sensor!

The old man from the Age of Kodachrome I

Unfortunately knowlege of Kodachrome doesn't mean much here. Leica replaced the screwed up sensors with working one's of the same specifications. Putting in any other sensor would mean a lot of electronic and software revamping. Putting in a FF sensor would also obviously mean mechanical revamping also.

[hartphotographic@mac.com]

Originally Posted by barjohn

...those of us with relatively high incomes (in the upper 1.5%) will think twice before paying Leica prices...

well, speaking for myself, although in the lower 1.5% (I think I netted less than $10K USD from my comm. photo business last year--it all goes back into the business), I will continue to purchase and support Leica digital M's (new versions or upgrades, not for the price--I had to twist & turn & squeeze every available cent to save for the M8--but for the images it produces and most importantly, for the experience it provides; the act of creation which, unlike with a DSLR, allows me to be part of the process in a much more tangible way than an auto-everything Dwhatever by Nikon or Canon. Don't get me wrong, my professional (i.e., paying jobs) are all with Canon, Cambo, Sinar, etc., but the photography for me is all Leica.

[honcho]

Originally Posted by terrycioni

First things first... I own a D3 and an M8, and I don't necessarily agree that on all levels there is no comparison....

Just to clarify my point, I was referring to the technical aspect of the M8, which is inevitably becoming less attractive with each new camera release from any manufacturer. The technical spec and imaging capabilities and characteristics of the D3 are measurable against the M8 and are vastly superior to the M8's spec and capabilities in every way.

The main thrust of my post was in response to the OP and to illustrate why, for my purposes, the M8 is currently not a viable option. It is impossible to make that point without comparisons to other cameras.

I hope that one day Leica may produce a digital rf that would fulfill my professional needs. Until they can, or do, the M8 for me would be nothing more than an indulgence.

Crap (terrycioni's term) or not, I am in business to make money. Any investment I make on equipment has to be made without indulgence as part of the criteria.

Just a thought.....

Assuming Leica can get it right next time with a truly great digital rf, are we likely to see the second-hand values of the M8 fall?

[delander]

Originally Posted by honcho

Just a thought.....

Assuming Leica can get it right next time with a truly great digital rf, are we likely to see the second-hand values of the M8 fall?

I wrote the cost off when I bought them, just as I did with my Canon stuff. I'll probably never sell them. My well-used 20D and 5D what are they worth now? And the 5D cost almost as much as an M8. To buy my first M8 I traded in my film stuff, did not get a very good price, should have kept it all and would have done if I had not come under pressure from 'her indoors' as we say here in the UK, to tidy up. 'You cant possibly need all those old cameras'.

Jeff