I Hate To Bring This Up But...how Much Longer For New Firmware?

[barjohn]

New firmware was promised months ago. It seems like I read a few threads that said it was being tested; however, the silence has been deafening since. Things like improved JPGs, SDHC support, more bug fixes, possibility to separate rewind from shutter action, improved high ISO performance and possibly other features.

Maybe the focus for the software development team is only on the new M9 or other new cameras and M8 has been deemed good enough. No communications as usual?

[padraigm]

Can there really be improved ISO performance with this sensor other that covering it up and loosing detail? Don't get me started with the click and whirl....

[chris_tribble]

John I've been asking myself the same question. One rumour was nothing before September... I have to say that now that AWB is fixed (beats my 5D in mixed lighting) apart from the shutter actuation / re-cock separation I'm not too desperate.

1/ noise - IF you expose correctly I think that most of us don't have that many problems. Having avoided 2500 for some time I do find myself using it occasionally and so long as I keep the histogram well to the right I find it very useable - I certainly don't see that huge a difference between well-exposed M8 shots and 5D high ISO shots.
2/ SDHC isn't a problem for me at the moment - I've NEVER shot in multi-shot mode on the M8 and 2 GB Sandisk Extreme III cards have been plenty big enough for my purposes
3/ I've never shot JPEGS - in fact I'd be happy to dump them all together... didn't someone talk about having the M8 as a RAW only camera and not worry about the circuitry...
4/ what bugs? With the latest firmware both my bodies have been behaving impeccably...

However it would be good to get a sense of when any further improvements are going to be available...

[Michael Tyler]

Originally Posted by chris_tribble

4/ what bugs? With the latest firmware both my bodies have been behaving impeccably...

I have had one freeze happen with the current firmware. Fixed as soon as I took out the battery and put it back in, but... I personally can't say there aren't bugs.

[chris_tribble]

Point taken - I had one freeze - but this was a battery problem (with a new battery). The issue here seemed to be with the terminals. A thorough cleaning fixed it. However - I'm certainly not saying the M8 code is bug free and any improvements will be welcome...

[gwelland]

Firmware 1.201 definitely isn't bug free - I've had an occasional lock up that required battery out (happened when shooting flash last time). The mad scrolling & timing problems with the wrong frame display also still occur randomly sometimes - very seldom though. Nothing really serious and the AWB is vastly superior than before.

My vote would be for the shutter re-cock to only occur once the shutter button is released in single shot mode - as-is in continuous mode. Oh, and user configurable lens selection (dream on ... )

[marknorton]

I used to always shoot DNG + JPEG because there were definitely times when the JPEG was convenient and "good enough" but that convenience was at a price - a sluggish camera. The blistering speed of the D3 made me switch to DNG only which not only improves the handling but also forces me to do the PP work which, if you get the workflow right, is not such a chore. It's then of course that the image quality of the M8 shines through.

You only have to look at how long C1 takes to "develop" an image, even on a powerful PC, to realise that the M8 is crippled by a lack of CPU cycles and I expect that refining the JPEG image becomes more and more processor intensive the further you go. A classic 80/20 rule and significant improvements to edge handling, for example, might make the camera just too slow to be usable.

That's why I'd like to see a DNG-only "skin" for the camera, where the option to use JPEG is completely hidden including the JPEG processing options which are currently greyed out. For many here, and me now, JPEGs on the M8 are irrelevant. Still use them on the D3 though, NEFs to one card, JPEGs to the other.

[Rolo]

Originally Posted by marknorton

That's why I'd like to see a DNG-only "skin" for the camera, where the option to use JPEG is completely hidden including the JPEG processing options which are currently greyed out.

Mark,

Firstly, I use RAW 100%.

It's clear that one of the biggest issues facing existing and prospective M8 owners is the ability to manage the post processing.

As an estimate, based on frequent meetings with M8 users, this applies to 50% of owners - half the Leica market. An improved jpeg could assist here. Going DNG-only would be a retrograde move, IMO.

Rolo

[chris_tribble]

Mark / Rolo - it's an interesting issue... having climbed digital post-process learning curves before getting the M8 JPEG wasn't ever a need, but I can see how there are others who find it a problem to develop the computer skills you need to really get the benefit of shifting to digital... I wonder if the C1 decision is part of the problem. I've not used it, but as Photoshop Elements has Adobe Camera Raw (ACR) built in, might it be a better starter experience than C1?

The other advice that digitial newbies are going to need is on core issues like the basic hardware / software you need + advice on colour calibrated workflow. I feel that a lot of the disappointment that has arisen around the M8 is that good photographers have faced a serious challenge when it's come to working with the images that the camera really offers... Certainly those who have depended on in camera processing of JPEGs must have had a very bumpy ride. Selling the M8 as a RAW only camera might have looked like a bad idea commercially in terms of immediate sales, but it might have meant that the reputation of the camera would have suffered less in the earlier days - especially because of the AWB issues...

Just a thought...

[marknorton]

Rolo, sorry, you misunderstand me. The M8 will of course always need JPEG functionality because there will always be people who are disinclined to do PP but of course they are not then getting the best out of the camera.

It would be interesting to provide an alternative user interface (skin, if you will) for users who are DNG only. That would free up two entries on the SET menu for other things, first choice for me would be WATE focal length when that lens is mounted. It would also remove some of the entries from the main menu (sharpness, saturation, colour space), making for a simplified camera, closer to the digital MP some have spoken about.

[usccharles]

the more i use my camera the more i feel like leica should have a menu to set the focal length of the lens, in addition to having the six bit coding.

its bad enough that we have to buy IR filters for each lens. i find it kinda irritating that all the older leica lenses need to be taken in to get six bit coding. whether its leica glass or some other brand, just let us set the focal length in the menu, and we can decide if we want to use it with or without the function

[Rolo]

Originally Posted by marknorton

Rolo, sorry, you misunderstand me. The M8 will of course always need JPEG functionality because there will always be people who are disinclined to do PP but of course they are not then getting the best out of the camera.

Happens to me all the time Mark.

I have a lot of sympathy for those who can't make the most of their acquisition. I'm aware of one person who graduated from a C Lux to an M8 because they wanted to take better images. They don't own a computer and view the images in Jessops before selecting for print.

I don't know if the intention is to acquire skills or not, but I'd be happy to give some free coaching if that person can get to the Theatre of Dreams.

From a Leica marketing position this is an obstacle as satisfied users are essential for the future of the product. Of course, people buy if they know the existing owners are realising their own potential.

Rolo

[georg]

Everybody who has trouble with "freezing" should try out another SD-card, the M8 is an exotic camera and therefore many SD-cards can cause trouble.
I used a Toshiba-card about 18 months ago and the camera worked fine the whole day, then it "freezed" two times within 20min. That was the last time I used this card (now only Panasonic - why pay the same for "made in China" - Sandisk?) and it was the last time the M8 failed!
18 months without any freezing!

I use JPGs for Ebay (640ASA 1MP) otherwise only DNG and I don't use a flash. But otherwise the camera works 100% and of course it has to, my Mac and PC crash several times a week, I don't want that with my camera!

[gwelland]

Originally Posted by georg

Everybody who has trouble with "freezing" should try out another SD-card, the M8 is an exotic camera and therefore many SD-cards can cause trouble.

Ah, if only it were that simple ... On the few occasions when I've had each of my M8's go into 'freeze' mode they've each had different SD cards - I use San Disk Extreme III and Lexar cards (bought from trusted retailers such as my local pro store and B&H so not eBay knock-offs) which are about as standard as you can get.

Discussing it will no doubt make it sound like it's a regular occurrence but that's certainly not the case for me, even with a pair of M8's.

[rosuna]

Originally Posted by chris_tribble

1/ noise - IF you expose correctly I think that most of us don't have that many problems. Having avoided 2500 for some time I do find myself using it occasionally and so long as I keep the histogram well to the right I find it very useable - I certainly don't see that huge a difference between well-exposed M8 shots and 5D high ISO shots.
2/ SDHC isn't a problem for me at the moment - I've NEVER shot in multi-shot mode on the M8 and 2 GB Sandisk Extreme III cards have been plenty big enough for my purposes
3/ I've never shot JPEGS - in fact I'd be happy to dump them all together... didn't someone talk about having the M8 as a RAW only camera and not worry about the circuitry...
4/ what bugs? With the latest firmware both my bodies have been behaving impeccably...

I agree. The problem is with cameras like the new Nikon D700, the state of the art in electronics technology (I refer to image capture) and the point of reference for price. The price/features of any camera relative to any other camera changes in time. Technology is evolving very fast, and prices are falling even faster... and the price of the M8 increasing...

The M8 is a very special camera, but this doesn't imply there isn't any competition. Noise at high ISO could be a problem for some people under particular circunstances (fast Leica lenses are very expensive, no image stabilization...). The other one, focus accuracy, cannot be improved by means of firmware updates.

[mjh]

Originally Posted by barjohn

New firmware was promised months ago.

Months ago? Really? The current firmware is just five months old. Leica said they are working on providing SDHC compatibility, but there have been no promises about when the next version of the firmware will be released.

[epand56]

The new firmware was due for the end of June but it was aborted because of troubles with the 6bit code lenses recognition. They are rewriting it and the date of issue depends on the time and will of the programmers (that belong to a company outside of Leica)

I've got this new on the Italian Leica Forum and i presume the source is reliable.

[georg]

@gwelland

I can recommend Panasonic-SD-cards. I have the Pro High-Speed 2GB (RP-SDV02GE1A and my camera ALWAYS worked with it. Maybe the "SD-card-chipset" is from Panasonic?

[ArtZ]

Originally Posted by mjh

Months ago? Really? The current firmware is just five months old. Leica said they are working on providing SDHC compatibility, but there have been no promises about when the next version of the firmware will be released.

Michael,

As Leica Camera AG is not the manufacturer of the SD card reader in the M8, drivers for this reader should be normally provided by the manufacturer itself (Panasonic, Toshiba, Ricoh, etc). Leica should just "add" them and "compile" the new firmware.

I really don't understand why Leica has not been able to offer us yet a SDHC firmware compatible.
.

[chris_tribble]

Originally Posted by rosuna

I agree. The problem is with cameras like the new Nikon D700, the state of the art in electronics technology (I refer to image capture) and the point of reference for price. The price/features of any camera relative to any other camera changes in time. Technology is evolving very fast, and prices are falling even faster... and the price of the M8 increasing...

The M8 is a very special camera, but this doesn't imply there isn't any competition. Noise at high ISO could be a problem for some people under particular circunstances (fast Leica lenses are very expensive, no image stabilization...). The other one, focus accuracy, cannot be improved by means of firmware updates.

Rosuna - all excellent points, but I don't see how Leica can play catch up with Nikon and Canon on the electronics... I suppose it would be interesting to know what Kodak are planning - but maybe that's the M9 (unless the infinite upgrade promise really did come good and we could do a sensor / board upgrade as the technology comes on stream - wouldn't that be nice...).

I do hope their business model can be made to work as I love working with a RF camera. Being hard-nosed about it I'm not overly concerned if the box I stick my lenses is on is made by Panasonic, Canon, Nikon or whoever - but for the time being the M8 is the only act in town and I've been happy to hand my money over to Leica.