New wideangle at Photokina?

[hnaa]

Hey,
well this is one of those speculative threads. I seem to have read a rumour somewhere about Leica maybe coming out with a wideangle prime for Photokina. For the life of me I can't remember where. I was wondering if any of you guys have heard or read anything about this? I have been pondering the Zeiss 18mm for some time now, but it seems such a bother with replacement flanges, coding and everything, so if Leica came out with something comparable, say, also an 18mm f/4, that would just be great. I certainly hope they don't make it an f/2.8, if they make it, because then the price would probably be over the top. And the WATE is just too big and too expensive for me.

[luigi bertolotti]

It's one of the several speculations about "what at Photokina ?" , so you have to wait for not too much to have the real answer ... you can find some threads which discussions on this to-be-wa... many (me included) agree that it would be a logical announcement following the "Summarit trend"... a not too costly prime wa in the "WATE range" , aperture not sexy... 4 - 4,5, RF coupled, a honest VF for M8. A recent hipotesis is that such a lens would be even more probable if at Photokina there will be also a digital RF less costly than M8 (a.k.a. "Digital CL"), maybe with an APS-C sensor size, with crop factor 1,5-1,6, for which a wa must be in the 16-20 range.

[jplomley]

The ZM 18/4 is a stellar performer. If Leica wish to compete with this optic, they must at least match the performance both optically and financially. I just cannot see this happening with the prices continuing to rise on Leica hardware.

[stunsworth]

During a recent factory visit to Solms it appears some saw a worksheet headed up 24mm f1.4. Personally I think that would be too big a lens given that Leica have said they won't be making lenses for a cropped sensor.

Speculation on my part, but I'd expect a 16mm somewhere in the range of f2.8-f4. The Voigtlander is superb value for money, but it isn't Leica quality IMHO.

That would give them the equivalent on the M8 of a 21mm lens on the film bodies.

Whatever they do I'd expect any such lens to be a 'flagship' lens rather than one that would sell in large quantities. For all that people say that Leica need a fast wide angle lens, I'd guess that historically most of their sales in film terms have been in the 28-90mm range, and probably more likely 35-50mm, a range they have covered at the moment. Perhaps therefore a 28mm Summilux to be the equivalent of a 35mm lens, and/or a 35mm Summilux that didn't have the back focussing issues of the current 35mm Summilux.

If I was running Leica - which thankfully for them I'm not - my priorities would be 1. 28mm Summilux, 2. new 35mm Summilux, 3. 16mm Elmar(it), 24mm Summilux.

[offshore]

Well, as long as we are speculating, my speculation is a 16 mm F2, a 24 mm F1.4, a 50mm f.95 and a new 28-35-50 but an F2.5 instead of an F4. I'm just speculating in case a certain forum member wants to jump on my case.

[croweatr]

Well,

I reckon there's a zoom on the way. At a guess, I'd say in the 21-200mm f/2.8 range. With inbuilt Image Stabilisation and Face Detection. A a hybrid diesel/electric fuel system.

AND I believe that that the next M8 firmware update will make significant steps towards Leica's zero-emissions target for their flagship camera.

Kevin

[Pointcolville]

How recently has Leica introduced or updated a lens faster than f2.5?

[jeffwros]

Originally Posted by Pointcolville

How recently has Leica introduced or updated a lens faster than f2.5?

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the Summarits are the latest lens releases.

[pgk]

Originally Posted by stunsworth

During a recent factory visit to Solms it appears some saw a worksheet headed up 24mm f1.4. Personally I think that would be too big a lens given that Leica have said they won't be making lenses for a cropped sensor.

Just a thought, but if you compare Leica's 35mm f/1.4 Summilux-M with Canon's 35mm f/1.4 L you will see that the Leica design is somewhat smaller! I also own a 24mm f/1.4 L Canon lens which is actually smaller that their 35mm f/1.4, so I don't see Leica having to produce an immensely bulky fast wide lens especially with modern glasses and computer design. A 24/1.4 or even 18/2 (please!) would be a very useful addition.

[rosuna]

Leica needs faster wide angles, and they should expand their "cheaper" Summarit line of lenses... so, you get the idea...
On the other hand, for a fast wide you can design a lens with a very wide diameter, or a longer lens with a smaller diameter...
The Noctilux is very important for the M system as a reference and symbol...

[marknorton]

Originally Posted by Pointcolville

How recently has Leica introduced or updated a lens faster than f2.5?

As far as I can remember, the last lens faster than f2.5 they introduced was the APO 75mm Summicron ASPH, whch was, I think, announced in 2004. Since then, we've had the WATE (f4), the 28mm Elmarit (f2.8) and the 4 Summarits (f2.5). In the same time, we've lost the 50mm Elmar, the 75mm Summilux, the 90mm Elmarit, the 28-35-50 Tri-Elmar and the Noctilux, three of them "trophy" lenses if you will which pushed the boundaries in terms of speed or function.

As for new lenses, they badly need a "value" wide-angle lens; the 28mm f2.8 is the value point at 28mm, just as the Summarits are higher up the range, but the next step wider is expensive. So, something like 24/4, 21/4, 18/4 are badly needed because users unwilling to pay the cost of the WATE, 21/2.8, 24/2.8 have no where to go but Zeiss or CV.

My preference would be a 28mm Summilux but most of all, I'd like them to stop convincing themselves the 35mm ASPH is as good as it needs to be and sort out the focus shift. They need to do the work to understand why the chrome lenses seem better behaved than the black ones and if they were able to offer an upgrade to the lens by (for example) using a new lens barrel and a replacement lens element, I'd certainly be interested.

If they can't make a 35mm which doesn't focus shift, what hope is there for a 28/1.4, let alone a 24/1.4?

What I'd really, really like though, is a camera which reinvents the rangefinder concept, updates it with modern technology instead of perpetuating a much loved but flawed design. That means, in my book, FF, electronic frame lines and sensing of actual focus.

[elviskennedy]

"What I'd really, really like though, is a camera which reinvents the rangefinder concept, updates it with modern technology instead of perpetuating a much loved but flawed design. That means, in my book, FF, electronic frame lines and sensing of actual focus.
__________________
Mark"


That's interesting, Mark. All are certainly possible simply from using existing technologies. The bigger question might be who steps up to the plate on it; Leica or somebody else?

What could it be like? Same form factor as M8 (give or take a little), better noise control and better wide angle coverage via updated FF sensor (already available), more electronics (easy) and compatible with M lenses. Heresy for many, I know. But for me the two big pieces are; 1) the form factor (small and light), and 2) M lenses.

[therightagent]

Originally Posted by elviskennedy

"What I'd really, really like though, is a camera which reinvents the rangefinder concept, updates it with modern technology instead of perpetuating a much loved but flawed design. That means, in my book, FF, electronic frame lines and sensing of actual focus.
__________________
Mark"


That's interesting, Mark. All are certainly possible simply from using existing technologies. The bigger question might be who steps up to the plate on it; Leica or somebody else?

What could it be like? Same form factor as M8 (give or take a little), better noise control and better wide angle coverage via updated FF sensor (already available), more electronics (easy) and compatible with M lenses. Heresy for many, I know. But for me the two big pieces are; 1) the form factor (small and light), and 2) M lenses.

I have heard rumor that CV will come up with a digital RF.

[rosuna]

The main problem of the M8 is, in my opinion, focus accuracy.
The other important problem is noise handling and internal software processing.
A third problem is total cost of the system.
...
Focus accuracy could be improved by means of electronic focus confirmation of some kind... or by means of a rangefinder with a longer base.

Noise handling and processing depends on the sensor and electronics/software.

Cost/Price reductions must affect bodies... the Summarit line is a great idea, but the total cost of the system is too high yet.

[marknorton]

I agree with you Ruben. It doesn't matter how good the resolution of the M lenses is if it's not possible to focus accurately. How much time has been spent on back and front focus issues on this forum? We need a camera which senses actual focus at the focal plane. We don't need 51 points like the Nikon D3, just a single one would be fine, implemented by feeding back to the user the split image rangefinder we all know and love.

Really, the only purpose of the focussing cam should be to indicate approximate focussing distance for parallax correction and for metering and flash purposes.

The M8 uses generic electronics - parts mostly available to anyone including you or me - and they need to improve the performance of the digital signal processing or else give up trying to process for accurate JPEG at all. Just make it a DNG only camera and let the post processing take care of the image.

Leica had their fingers burned with the M5 because it dared to be different but that was 37 years ago. Forget it. We need a radically new camera with a fresh design which doesn't pretend to be an M7 on steroids and Leica should ignore the whining from the LHSA who are a far from healthy influence on proceedings.

[luigi bertolotti]

[quote=stunsworth;593461]During a recent factory visit to Solms it appears some saw a worksheet headed up 24mm f1.4....

Possible... expecially if one considers that surely the optical group is probably working also on some R lenses... and about

... It doesn't matter how good the resolution of the M lenses is if it's not possible to focus accurately <quote, MarkNorton> .

This is the reason for I think that a possible new prime WA for M shall not have a top aperture ... a 16 to 20 mm f4 or 4,5, even if RF coupled (Leica must make it coupled, just for principle) isn't expected to bring problems of back-front-hell focusing....

[luigi bertolotti]

Originally Posted by therightagent

I have heard rumor that CV will come up with a digital RF.

Eh eh eh, all these RUMORS.... maybe they can draw a good design, and discretely propose it to Leica... should be not a stupid choice, for both... probably (just the 1000th speculation... ) a "Leica branded - CV made" compact DRF can fetch an end user price such that CV may "sell" it to Leica about the standard transfer price they'd make to their traditional channel... and the potential volumes I think can be projected as higher... and, after all, such a move wouldn't ever hurt the Panasonic relationship...

[luigi bertolotti]

Originally Posted by croweatr

Well,

I reckon there's a zoom on the way. At a guess, I'd say in the 21-200mm f/2.8 range. With inbuilt Image Stabilisation and Face Detection. A a hybrid diesel/electric fuel system.

AND I believe that that the next M8 firmware update will make significant steps towards Leica's zero-emissions target for their flagship camera.

Kevin

... Don't forget a triple AIRBAG.... back (LCD) - top (shutter+switch) - and OVER FRONT LENS... let your M8 fly sure !!!

[stevelap]

Originally Posted by marknorton

What I'd really, really like though, is a camera which reinvents the rangefinder concept, updates it with modern technology instead of perpetuating a much loved but flawed design. That means, in my book, FF, electronic frame lines and sensing of actual focus.

Me too, it's time to do it if they have the money and the vision.

[ChrisC]

Originally Posted by marknorton

What I'd really, really like though, is a camera which reinvents the rangefinder concept, updates it with modern technology instead of perpetuating a much loved but flawed design.......electronic frame lines and sensing of actual focus.

And:

We need a radically new camera with a fresh design which doesn't pretend to be an M7 on steroids and Leica should ignore the whining from the LHSA who are a far from healthy influence on proceedings.

Mark - The Legacy Taliban would put a stop to such heretic thinking, but you are absolutely right. I won't be in the market for another Leica rangefinder for quite some time, but; I really want them to shake up their design thinking and dump some of the anachronisms which survived in the M8 [and no, I do not wish to restate them yet again]. I fear that your list, whilst being standard design thinking for other camera companies might be too radical for Leica. My gut feeling is that there are far more potential customers willing Leica to be more attractive to them as potential customers than there are legacy-ites holding the company back. I too hope Leica modernises it's rangefinder camera tradition; and maybe [heresy warning] forget the 'R' line and concentrate their efforts on developing a more extraordinary 'M' line.

................... Chris