SF20 on the M8

[chris_tribble]

Hi - out tonight to support some friends canoing around the Cheshire Ring... I never got round to getting the SF 20D - but do have an old SF20 that I never bothered with as I thought it wasn't compatible. Doesn't seem to work in TTL mode - but actually seems to produce reasonable results in A mode... Does anyone have any experience? It certainly picks up ISO and shutter speed information from the camera - and seems to do fill flash on the informal testing I've been doing.

Any advice greatly welcome!

Best

[charlesphoto99]

Hi Chris,

I use my SF20 on my M8, though I've always had better results with it and the M7 and TTL. The biggest drawback is that in Auto mode you have a very limited selection of f stops to work with. And you do need to diffuse it. I would also rely heavily on the histogram vs the jpeg preview. For some reason it doesn't deal so well with flash.

I've since gotten a Nikon Sb800 to use with both the M8 and D3. The SF24, not only being expensive, I wasn't crazy about the idea of pre-flashing.

TTL is over rated in my opinion anyway. Auto often works better (for me), one just needs to maybe pay a little more attention.

[j. white]

For a couple of reasons, I prefer using the SF 24D's Auto to TTL mode on the M8.

Firstly, the pre-flash with its inherent delay is very un "M" like in my opinion. The M6 TTL was my first Leica body and with very few exceptions, have found its TTL circuit to be consistently complimentary using the SF 20. I can't claim to know the engineering reasons behind the change of circuit for the M8, but have yet to find the user benefit.

Another annoyance is how the pre-flash can interact with the less than stellar recycle time of the unit - when shooting rapid sequences, the flash can have enough power to fire the pre-flash, but then fails to expose the image due to insufficient charge.

The auto mode consistently provides very good to excellent exposures and lacking the above foibles is far preferable for my shooting.

Oh, and to the point of the original posters question, while it is not compatible with the GNC/TTL mode of the M8, the SF 20 is a fine and small unit that does everything it claims to do. I agree that the main advantage of the SF 24D is the wider selection of available f stops in auto mode.


-J.

[chris_tribble]

Charles / J - many thanks. Flash remains for me one of the higher arcana (only just worked out how to use it better on my EOS system - A or T modes are just so much better than P!). Can I, therefore, ask some more dummy questions (this in the absence of the manual for the SF20)...

1/ BUTTONS
There are 5 buttons to play with:
+/-
Triangle / P
Aperture
ISO

FUNCTIONS in A mode
- Press Triangle / P = two stops of EV compensation (0 to -2)
- Press Aperture symbol offers flash synchronisation at f2.8 / f5.6 / f11
- Press ISO (off camera) = ISO 25 through to ISO 800

2/ ON CAMERA
- ISO is selected directly and over-rides Flash settings
- Triangle / P still gives the two stops of EV compensation
- Aperture - functions as above.

3/ WORKING in A MODE with camera also set to A
So long as you manually match aperture on camera to the selected aperture on flash, you get pretty good fill flash from 30th second up to 250th. Shooting against a bright light so that shutter speed goes above 250, the flash doesn't fire. Meter off a slightly darker area and then re-compose to shoot against the light, the flash will fire.

4/ WORKING in A MODE with camera in MANUAL MODE
Pre-selecting an aperture up to 250th appears to allow quite acceptable fill flash.

Really grateful if flash savvy list members can check if I've got it right!

QUESTIONS

1/ FLASH COMPENSATION - How best to do this? One approach, obviously, is to use the built in flash compensation - an alternative seems to be to deliberately under expose by closing down the aperture on camera - but this can be a bit hit or miss... Any experience?

2/ DIFFUSION - as you can't bounce the flash + I've lost the little diffuser cover for wide angle, any recommendations? One thought is the SFill from Leica Goodies Get your SFILL! ... and does anyone know where I can get a replacement for the Leica diffuser??

3/ 2nd CURTAIN SYNCH - I've habitually used this on EOS as I prefer the effect with moving subjects... does anyone have thoughts on pros and cons here?

Thanks for the responses so far... As I say, I hardly ever need to use flash - but as I've got the little piece of kit and as there are occasions where it can be handy, seems sensible to make sure I'm using it properly...

V Best

[Photon42]

I frequently use a SB 20 or SB 27 (both Nikon), US$ 25 and 50, IIRC. The SB27 has enough auto apertures and is a very nice flash. No TTL, no pre-flash, no problems with half closed eyes and frozen mimics. I know it's completely off-topic ...

[lars_bergquist]

Originally Posted by j. white

-----Firstly, the pre-flash with its inherent delay is very un "M" like in my opinion. The M6 TTL was my first Leica body and with very few exceptions, have found its TTL circuit to be consistently complimentary using the SF 20. I can't claim to know the engineering reasons behind the change of circuit for the M8, but have yet to find the user benefit.-J.

No digital camera can use TTL flash without pre-flashing. A film camera like the M6TTL or the M7 measures the flash on the fly by monitoring the light reflected from the film. But while the film emulsion is matte, the digital sensor presents a shiny glass surface. The result is uneven and variable metering. This is why digital TTL circuitry has to measure a pre-flash bounced from the shutter curtain instead.

The old man from the Age of Flashpowder

[chris_tribble]

Originally Posted by lars_bergquist

No digital camera can use TTL flash without pre-flashing. A film camera like the M6TTL or the M7 measures the flash on the fly by monitoring the light reflected from the film. But while the film emulsion is matte, the digital sensor presents a shiny glass surface. The result is uneven and variable metering. This is why digital TTL circuitry has to measure a pre-flash bounced from the shutter curtain instead.

The old man from the Age of Flashpowder

Lars - does this mean that in some senses (setting aside the lowe power of the SF20) that it's actually quite a reasonable tool with the M8 (if used in A mode...)?

Still hoping for some advice on the issue of diffuser

Best,

[grober]

Dear Leica: please produce a SF__ unit with a tilt head!

-g

[chris_tribble]

Thanks for the comments thus far...

Back in London and have found the instructions and the diffuser!

Questions still:
1/ in A mode, does it make sense to use aperture for EV compensation (you only have whole stop control on flash)
2/ ANY experience of using the Leicagoodies bounce / diffuser or improvisations?

Thanks

[j. white]

Lars,

Many thanks for the insight into TTL metering in the digital age. Yet another reason to still like film!


Chris,

Your thoughts about the details of operating the SF20 (Items 1 & 2) are spot-on. One note from the manual that may be of help:

ISO is set via the camera and cannot be set on the flash unit when using the R8/9 or any TTL model. I can only assume this includes the M8.

Item 3: Correct again. (The same is true in TTL mode with the 24D.)

Item 4: This requires experimentation, but yes can absolutely be useful.

Questions:

Compensation: Changing the aperture and in many cases the shutter speed is the fastest way to go. (I find adjusting the buttons on the flash is a bit cumbersome in comparison.) Again, I recommend doing a lot of experimentation until you find the combination of shutter speed & aperture that best balances the main exposure and fill-in flash lighting. Like manual exposure metering, with practice it eventually becomes second nature. This is one of the reasons for which chimping is your friend.

As for diffusers, the SFIL is a nice accessory. I'd also recommend that you call a few of the notable dealers to see if you can find the Leica part. A long time ago I cut up a milky translucent plastic bottle and placed a piece of it between the flash head and diffuser. It keeps the compact dimensions of the unit and provides a subtle softening effect on the output.

2nd Curtain Sync: I have been waiting for years to own a camera with this option. It was one of the first items I looked into on the M8's menu and I haven't been disappointed with it in the least.


Cheers,

-J.

[chris_tribble]

John - many thanks - really helpful comments.

The good news is that I have now found the diffuser (sometimes it's great to hoard the original boxes that things come in) so I'll definitely have a go at the milkbottle diffuser). I use a Sto-Fen diffuser on Canon flash units, but these require the head being at 45 degrees to camera... With the Leica unit I suppose it's going to be a case for experimentation now.

V Best