Something I missed...

[jaapv]

and found in the Leica FAQ's

1.4 With some SD cards, the picture numbers are reset even though the menu item "Picture Numbering" is set to "Continuously". Also, with these cards, the frame counter displays a false amount of remaining pictures immediately after switching on the camera and before taking the first shot. How can this be avoided?

This effect can be avoided by formatting the card in "FAT" standard instead of in "FAT32" standard. Windows users can proceed as follows:
- Insert the card into a card reader
- Click on the respective drive in the Windows Explorer
- Click the right mouse button on the respective drive letter to select the item
"Formatting"
- Select "FAT" instead of "FAT32" under "File System"
- Click on "Start"
Another way of avoiding the effect is to simply keep the camera switched on when changing cards. We will correct this fault as soon as possible.

[Shootist]

That is why I have been saying to format the cards in/on PC with FAT instead of the normal (defaulted option of) FAT32.

This can solve numerous card problems. Of course you then need to format the cards in the camera.

[pgk]

What about on a Mac? In the past I have been warned off trying to format any card on a Mac because of various issues - does this still apply?

[Shootist]

Originally Posted by pgk

What about on a Mac? In the past I have been warned off trying to format any card on a Mac because of various issues - does this still apply?

If Mac offers to format FAT the standard should be the same. But I really don't know as I don't, and never did, use a Mac.

[ArtZ]

Originally Posted by jaapv

and found in the Leica FAQ's

1.4 With some SD cards, the picture numbers are reset even though the menu item "Picture Numbering" is set to "Continuously". Also, with these cards, the frame counter displays a false amount of remaining pictures immediately after switching on the camera and before taking the first shot. How can this be avoided?

This effect can be avoided by formatting the card in "FAT" standard instead of in "FAT32" standard. Windows users can proceed as follows:
- Insert the card into a card reader
- Click on the respective drive in the Windows Explorer
- Click the right mouse button on the respective drive letter to select the item
"Formatting"
- Select "FAT" instead of "FAT32" under "File System"
- Click on "Start"
Another way of avoiding the effect is to simply keep the camera switched on when changing cards. We will correct this fault as soon as possible.

Jacob,

This is not new. Since July 2007 (maybe June, I don't remember exactly) you can find this tip in every Leica's FAQ. I have always formated my SD cards in my card readers (not with M8) in FAT only and I never had problems. Of course, everybody disagreed...

If you search on this forum, there're a few threads about it (july-august-september). I remember a thread between HO_CO, myself and others about Leica "format". I believe there's a bug in the firmware concerning the format option and/or the FAT32 used by Leica doesn't respect FAT32 specifications.

Never mind, if you format your SD cards in your reader, which is plugged to your computer, using FAT you will avoid a lot of problems

And I'm still waiting how Leica will find a solution (with firmware only) to use SDHC cards with our M8s... (Leica's FAQ says it's possible...)

Regards,

ArtZ

[Shootist]

ArtZ I totally agree. That is why I don't understand some users saying to NEVER format the cards in a computer. Foolish and a little ridiculous advice, if you ask me.

[jaapv]

I know it's not new. But it slipped my mind and may have slipped other's

[ArtZ]

In some rare occasions, I have formatted my SD cards on the camera because I didn't have a laptop with me.

And when I have done this, sometimes, when I tried to format them again with my laptop, my computer detected the cards had been previously formatted on NTFS (Windows NT, XP and Vista) not in FAT32 and my laptop refused to format them (This is the reason which makes me suspect a firmware bug). The only workaround solution I found when this happened, it was to insert the "faulty" SD card in another camera and format it. This solved the problem and I could format them again with my computer.

As I said before, I've never found any problem with my SD cards if formatted with my computer.
.

[wparsonsgisnet]

Originally Posted by Shootist

That is why I have been saying to format the cards in/on PC with FAT instead of the normal (defaulted option of) FAT32.

This can solve numerous card problems. Of course you then need to format the cards in the camera.

Would you clarify, please?

Are you saying format to FAT in the computer and then reformat in the camera?

[ArtZ]

Originally Posted by wparsonsgisnet

Would you clarify, please?

Are you saying format to FAT in the computer and then reformat in the camera?

Bill,

Sometimes (I insist, this happen only sometimes and I don't know why) when I have formatted my cards with the M8 because I didn't have a laptop, next time I tried to format them with my laptop, Vista gave me an error "Impossible to format this media" (or something like that).

Then, if I right click on the device (the SD card) and go to "Properties", I find that Vista sees the SD card volume as a NTFS partition and not FAT32.

If I insert the card again in my M8 to format it once more, Vista still sees the SD card as if it was formatted using NTFS. This means that once you get a format error, to reformat the card with the camera won't correct it probably because the camera performs only a "quick format"

So the only way I have found to make my laptop detect the SD card correctly it's to insert the SD card in another camera (I normally use a Canon S80 which uses only FAT) and I format it with the camera. After that Vista will see my SD card as a FAT volume and I can format again with my computer if I wish.

BTW, I only use 2Gb SanDisk Extreme III and Transcend 2Gb 150X cards.

[Shootist]

Originally Posted by wparsonsgisnet

Would you clarify, please?

Are you saying format to FAT in the computer and then reformat in the camera?

Yes Bill that is exactly what I am saying and so does the Leica FAQ's.
The default file format for removable USB storage devices, which is what a SD card is in a card reader, on Win XP is FAT32 (Not sure about Vista as I don't and won't use it). So you have to select FAT when formatting the card in a PC.

[bayerische]

This happened to me when I was in Florida last autumn.

Bought 2 new SD cards while there.

[pgk]

Just trying this and my first query is as follows:

Using Disk Utility on my G4 Powerbook, the options I have regarding Volume Format only include "MS-DOS File System (FAT16)" and this is only available for 1GB cards.

Is this actually the same format as is being referred to in this thread as simply 'FAT'?

The computer is already showing this (FAT16) as the existing format of the all the 1GB cards I have. However all the 2GB cards are shown as FAT32 and there appears to be no option to reformat these as FAT16 - the only option shown is simply stated as 'MS-DOS File System'.

As I have had significant problems with some card readers (not only on M8 formatted SD cards I hasten to add) anything which increases transfer reliability would be welcomed so I am interested in hearing any views on formatting in case this will help. It looks as though my G4s may soon have to be retired!

[jimmy pro]

Originally Posted by Shootist

That is why I have been saying to format the cards in/on PC with FAT instead of the normal (defaulted option of) FAT32.

This can solve numerous card problems. Of course you then need to format the cards in the camera.

Clarify this for me please. It sounds like your saying first I should format the card in the computer with FAT, then I still need to format them again in the camera? Is that right? In otherwords, I shouldn't just format in FAT in the card reader and just start shooting?

[ArtZ]

Originally Posted by pgk

Just trying this and my first query is as follows:

Using Disk Utility on my G4 Powerbook, the options I have regarding Volume Format only include "MS-DOS File System (FAT16)" and this is only available for 1GB cards.

Is this actually the same format as is being referred to in this thread as simply 'FAT'?

The computer is already showing this (FAT16) as the existing format of the all the 1GB cards I have. However all the 2GB cards are shown as FAT32 and there appears to be no option to reformat these as FAT16 - the only option shown is simply stated as 'MS-DOS File System'.

As I have had significant problems with some card readers (not only on M8 formatted SD cards I hasten to add) anything which increases transfer reliability would be welcomed so I am interested in hearing any views on formatting in case this will help. It looks as though my G4s may soon have to be retired!

About FAT

The initial version of FAT is now referred to as FAT12. Designed as a file system for floppy diskettes, it limited cluster addresses to 12-bit values.

In 1984 IBM released the PC AT, which featured a 20 MB hard disk. Microsoft introduced MS-DOS 3.0 in parallel. Cluster addresses were increased to 16-bit, allowing for up to 65,517 clusters per volume, and consequently much greater file system sizes.

Finally in November 1987, Compaq DOS 3.31 introduced what is today called the FAT16 format, with the expansion of the 16-bit disk sector count to 32 bits. The result was initially called the DOS 3.31 Large File System.

In 1988 the improvement became more generally available through MS-DOS 4.0 and OS/2 1.1. The limit on partition size was dictated by the 8-bit signed count of sectors-per-cluster, which had a maximum power-of-two value of 64. With the standard hard disk sector size of 512 bytes, this gives a maximum of 32 KB clusters, thereby fixing the "definitive" limit for the FAT16 partition size at 2 gibibytes. On magneto-optical media, which can have 1 or 2 KB sectors, the limit is proportionally greater.

For historical reasons, FAT12 and FAT16 media generally use 512 root directory entries on non-floppy media. Other sizes may be incompatible with some software or devices (entries being file and/or folder names in the original 8.3 format)

In order to overcome the volume size limit of FAT16, while still allowing DOS real mode code to handle the format without unnecessarily reducing the available conventional memory, Microsoft implemented a newer generation of FAT, known as FAT32, with cluster values held in a 32-bit field, of which 28 bits are used to hold the cluster number, for a maximum of approximately 268 million clusters. This allows for drive sizes of up to 8 terabytes with 32KB clusters, but the boot sector uses a 32-bit field for the sector count, limiting volume size to 2 TB on a hard disk with 512 byte sectors.

Conclusion

Broadly speaking, FAT refers to FAT12 and FAT16 because the headers are identical, only the number of maximum clusters is different.

With FAT16 we can format a SD card up to 2GB, for larger capacities we need to use FAT32. So, if you use a 4GB SD card (Transcend 4GB 150X) you CANNOT format using FAT, you must use FAT32 (your computer will prompt for FAT32 and it won't give you the choice to use FAT16)

For volumes up to 32MB > FAT12
For volumes up to 2GB > FAT16
For volumes greater than 2GB > FAT32

Originally Posted by jimmy pro

Clarify this for me please. It sounds like your saying first I should format the card in the computer with FAT, then I still need to format them again in the camera? Is that right? In otherwords, I shouldn't just format in FAT in the card reader and just start shooting?

Shootist, Jimmy,

If you format your SD card once more with you M8 after having being formated with your computer, your SD card will be reformated in FAT32 and no longer in FAT, so it won't solve any problem.
.

[pgk]

Thanks Jimmy, I think that that makes sense.

So to sum up, it appears that I am probably unable to reformat 2Gb cards on my current Macs as no FAT option is shown (I'm not sure exactly what the 'MS-DOS' option actually refers to - possibly FAT32 but I am dubious - and there is no FAT16 option available).

Might all this explain why I have had to revert to an old card reader to avoid problems with any cards which have been used to shoot images exceeding 1GB (ie more than half filling a 2GB card - which is when my computer won't read more than 1GB with several readers which I own)?

[Shootist]

Originally Posted by jimmy pro

Clarify this for me please. It sounds like your saying first I should format the card in the computer with FAT, then I still need to format them again in the camera? Is that right? In otherwords, I shouldn't just format in FAT in the card reader and just start shooting?

In theory you can just stick the card in the camera and start shooting, whether the card is new or just formatted in a PC. The camera will place a folder named DCIM and a subfolder name either Leica100 or 100Leica under the first folder on the card and store the image file in that subfolder. But it is always a good idea/habit to format the card in the camera everytime you insert one.

[pklein]

This is probably why the advice about never formatting the card in the computer--only the camera--came about. There's too many confusing ifs, ands and buts about all the possible permutations of formatting on PCs vs. Macs, FAT12/16/32 or NTFS, and in camera after any of the preceding. The "no-computer formatting" rule is not entirely accurate, but if you follow it, you're almost always safe.

Say, is there a SKINI format for memory cards in sub-compact point-and-shoots?

--Peter

[wparsonsgisnet]

Originally Posted by ArtZ

About FAT

For volumes up to 32MB > FAT12
For volumes up to 2GB > FAT16
For volumes greater than 2GB > FAT32 [/b]

Shootist, Jimmy,

If you format your SD card once more with you M8 after having being formated with your computer, your SD card will be reformated in FAT32 and no longer in FAT, so it won't solve any problem.
.

SO, if I read the FAQ quote from Jaap at the stop of the thread. we're screwed if we use 4gb cards. We can format up to 2gb at FAT (or FAT-16), but we can only format a (nonstandard, of course) 4gb SD card as FAT-32 -- and this may mess up the image sequence numbers.

That is, we can only fix the numbering problem by NOT using 4gb cards.

Do I have that right?

[ArtZ]

Originally Posted by wparsonsgisnet

SO, if I read the FAQ quote from Jaap at the stop of the thread. we're screwed if we use 4gb cards. We can format up to 2gb at FAT (or FAT-16), but we can only format a (nonstandard, of course) 4gb SD card as FAT-32 -- and this may mess up the image sequence numbers.

That is, we can only fix the numbering problem by NOT using 4gb cards.

Do I have that right?

Bill,

First, I don't use regurlaly the 4GB cards because, even the fastest ones compatible with the M8 (Transcend 4GB 150X), they're extremely slow espacially when you shoot DNG+JPG. The "red light" blinks for a ve....ery long time and, in a few occasions last summer, I had to remove the battery because the camera doesn't stop blinking(*)

Though, if you want to you them you have two options:

1.- According to Leica FAQ: "Another way of avoiding the effect is to simply keep the camera switched on when changing cards. We will correct this fault as soon as possible."

2.- My own workaround: If I need to use a 4GB card (I was using them in the Philippines in April because sometimes 2GB are not enough and changing SD cards can be problematic), I format them with my PC using FAT32 (never in the M8). As I said previously, I suspect a bug in the FAT32 format done by the M8.

Hope that helps

(*) I have never experienced this when I had formated the SD card in my computer's card reader using FAT32
.