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Leica M8 bashed by Michael Kamber


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Michale Kamber (New York Times) about working with the M8 in real life (and death) situation.

 

I must admit it's a painful reading for a Leica lover, mostly because there is some indelible truth to it

— even though I'm not a photojournalist shooting in war combat situation.

 

Leica M8 Field Test, Iraq

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Michale Kamber (New York Times) about working with the M8 in real life (and death) situation.

 

I must admit it's a painful reading for a Leica lover, mostly because there is some indelible truth to it

— even though I'm not a photojournalist shooting in war combat situation.

 

Leica M8 Field Test, Iraq

 

How often do we see this BS here again? Is not one time enough ?????

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Too often, self styled critics are miskaen for experts in an alien field. By that I mean Michael Kamber may be an expert War PJ, but that does NOT make him an expert at camera assessment, IMHO. His findings on shorrtcomings of the M8 are exactly how it affects HIM. Those same problems don't all apply to ME. Of course, some do.

 

The overriding reality is that most users of M8's do not put the same demands on their camera that a War PJ might. Also to be considered is the personal expertise of the photographer when deciding when any camera is to be used by them in any situation. I remember when I used to 'swap out' 12 exposure rolls of film in my Hasselblad and still manage to 'outgun' competitive 35mm shooters. That was, I believe, because I outmanouvered them rather than being 'faster.' To put it into context, M.K's assertion that the M8 is 'too slow' to swap out SD cards and batteries is a bit of a beat up IMO. Especially when he declares how long he had worked with old analog M's. Then he would have been changing film every 36 shots or so which is not nearly as fast or efficient as changing a 2GB or 4GB SD card evry 'how many?' shots.

 

We all need to assess the physical and technical demands of our work and choose our tools according to our known ability (or lack thereof) to use it. All this balanced against the real need that may exist for unobtrusiveness, ruggedness, portability, etc yahdee yaydee yah.......

 

I number myself amongst those working professinals (if that means anything!) who find the M8 an excellent choice for what I need to do. There are things it will not do, or does poorly, so how stupid would I be to attempt to make it do those things. I should add, I road tested my first M6 for a whole year before trusting it to an assignment without alternative backup. The first time I used it exclusively to work with I realized it was best for me and all my other gear is now my "week end Sunday driving" indulgence only.

 

A little perspective on reliabilty to sum up. 50+ years of professional camera use failed to find me a totally reliable camera. If not perfect, the M8 is in good company!

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A little perspective on reliabilty to sum up. 50+ years of professional camera use failed to find me a totally reliable camera. If not perfect, the M8 is in good company!

 

Myself being not a professional photographer, but a serious and very ambitious amateur - who in some cases puts even higher demand on their gear than professionals - can only back this!

 

After 40+ years of working with all different kind of equipment the M8 is in good company if it comes to being a highly reliable tool for the purpose it was designed for, but still having some flaws, which hopefully will be solved with it's next incarnation.

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How often do we see this BS here again? Is not one time enough ?????

 

My apology : I did not saw the previous post on the forum about this paper.

Nevertheless, two remarks :

- I always defended and will continue to defend the M8 in front of its critics :

this camera gives excellent results for my needs, both in my personal and

professional work

- Even if Kamber's is a one-sided test, and if he obviously did it before new firmware,

some forthcomings do exist.

Two mechanical ones are obvious to me : the power switch is too soft, and I did brush it accidentally from one position to another. It did not have the consequences it had for him, of course, but a firmer switch would be better (a bit like the one on my M7, which clicks more frankly) ; and the non recessed buttons are an obvious flaw which I saw instantly when receiving my camera.

The third regards the buffer (hardware ? software ?) which is too short. Even in single mode, it sometimes trails behind, even with the fastest cards, and should'nt.

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sthan, you are perfectly correct in your observed flaws of the M8. I too observe them. They are therefore taken into account when I choose to use the camera. If they present a risk to my assignment, clearly I am a fool to continue to insist on using it instead of an alternative. Fortunately, in my case so far, that has not happened, for which I am grateful.

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erl, I agree.

"Flaws" is a bit too much of a word, I'll say "glitches".

They never lead to disasters, but only to minor annoyances.

One always has to assess his tool to his task.

More on that :

I was at an official dinner presentation for a posh institute

tuesday night, with my M8. Of course, I had no problem

to shoot with available light (160 and 320) in a quiet and

discrete manner.

Then came the "in-house" photographer with a superb D3,

equipped with a huge flash, blinding his subjects with a

harsh light. I was to go find hilm and tell him : "Mister, it's

a D3, turn off the flash and shoot the ambient." I did not

— he was in the heavyweight category, I'm just a lightweight.:rolleyes:

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Forum member and working pro Chris Weeks has a blog. His latest deals at some length with Michael Kamber's M8 comments. Don't be put-off by Chris's blog persona (profane and seemingly untrained in writing). We've seen him write expertly here, and in spite of the blog style writing his messabge is interesting:

Chris - Uber - this may sting...

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Myself being not a professional photographer, but a serious and very ambitious amateur - who in some cases puts even higher demand on their gear than professionals - can only back this!

 

After 40+ years of working with all different kind of equipment the M8 is in good company if it comes to being a highly reliable tool for the purpose it was designed for, but still having some flaws, which hopefully will be solved with it's next incarnation.

 

Pardon?

 

Please, are you going to try and tell me that an amateur, even a serious one going out to shoot some frames is more demanding on a photographer/gear than a commercial photographer who has a client who is spending in excess of 100K in production costs on a day of shooting?

 

The M8 produces lovely files. I have always worked with Leica's and have been a fan of shooting with rangefinders for close to three decades, but please, unless you have worked as a professional, you do not know what demands are placed on a camera system. This camera has MAJOR shortcomings as a working tool. I will say it again, it produces lovely files, but try shooting 1000 images a day over a 7 day period with a client and crew looking over your shoulder and then tell me if it is an effective tool. It is PAINFULLY slow. Even with the new firmware, it still needs to be reset regularly.

 

Again, it makes lovely files, and I am thrilled to have a digital M, but it is a long way from being a professional camera - this is no workhorse. This is not me bashing the camera, I'm just being realistic about it's capabilities.

 

P

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POKO, with respect, I think you, and possible all of us, are in danger here of assumming that professionals are all of one kind and that all amateurs are of a different kind. I suggest that the only real diifference that exists that ALL Pro's are different from each other, as are ALL amateurs. If one or the other claims they can and do "such & such", I for one am inclined to believe them, even if it is not what or how I would do "such & such".

 

To illustrate, I DO claim to shoot 1500 images in a day with the M8 and challenge any photographer with any OTHER camera to match me at the assignment. The fact that I regularly get the job over others tells me something about how "me + M8" is not exactly a failure. So yes, the M8 CAN work professionally, but if you don't choose to accept that, fine. I respect your right to be convinced by your own experience, as I am by mine. Good to read that you enjoy yours anyway.:)

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POKO, with respect, I think you, and possible all of us, are in danger here of assumming that professionals are all of one kind and that all amateurs are of a different kind. I suggest that the only real diifference that exists that ALL Pro's are different from each other, as are ALL amateurs. If one or the other claims they can and do "such & such", I for one am inclined to believe them, even if it is not what or how I would do "such & such".

 

To illustrate, I DO claim to shoot 1500 images in a day with the M8 and challenge any photographer with any OTHER camera to match me at the assignment. The fact that I regularly get the job over others tells me something about how "me + M8" is not exactly a failure. So yes, the M8 CAN work professionally, but if you don't choose to accept that, fine. I respect your right to be convinced by your own experience, as I am by mine. Good to read that you enjoy yours anyway.:)

 

Hi,

 

Well, I would never assume that all photographers are the same. I agree, they can not all be painted with the same brush. There are professionals who are complete hacks, and there are amateurs who produce amazing work. There is, however, a huge difference between shooting for yourself and shooting for an assignment. When there is a large amount of money on the line, and as the photographer, you are also responsible for the production, time is money. If the camera is slowing down the process, when it really shouldn't have to - we are not talking about an 8X10 here, we are talking about a supposedly a "quick" shooting camera - it will end up causing you much stress, cause your client much stress and potentially end up costing you money.

 

As I said, it produces lovely files, and I love shooting with it, but for my purposes and for demands that I place on a camera system when shooting for an ad campaign or an annual report, it just does not cut it. So, I will say again, that I doubt that an amateur would ever have tens of thousands of dollars on the line shooting something - the demands are just not the same. Now, there are working photographers that do not have those demands on a system, but there is still a client and there is still money involved - therefor the demands will be higher for a "professional" then there is for an amateur.

 

From a quality of the file produced standpoint, sure the demands can be the same that is about the skill and care of the photographer - but from the working capabilities and demands on the system itself, there can be no comparison.

 

There is another 10 cents worth of opinion:)

 

P

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This camera has MAJOR shortcomings as a working tool. I will say it again, it produces lovely files, but try shooting 1000 images a day over a 7 day period with a client and crew looking over your shoulder and then tell me if it is an effective tool.

 

Again, it must be pointed out that all this means is that the M8 doesn't work FOR YOU. It does FOR ME. I don't shoot 1000 images/day for 7 days, or even for one day. Nor do most professional photographers I know. For me, a heavy shoot is around 300 files. I shoot slowly and deliberately and have never--not even once--had the "slowness" of the M8 hamper my shooting.

 

I completely understand what you are saying about the M8, but please try to keep in mind what several of us have been saying repeatedly in other threads--that one can make determinations about the suitability of the M8 for their own work, but cannot correctly assert that this applies to everyone else.

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Guest jimmy pro
Too often, self styled critics are miskaen for experts in an alien field. By that I mean Michael Kamber may be an expert War PJ, but that does NOT make him an expert at camera assessment, IMHO.

 

That's rich. Whenever some amatuer disses the M8, there comes the old taunt for him to demonstrate his skill as a photographer, as if that does make him an expert at camera assessment. Now when someone who does demonstrate his skill bashes the M8, it's no longer a necessary criteria.

 

The overriding reality is that most users of M8's do not put the same demands on their camera that a War PJ might.

 

ROFL. Ya think?

 

Also to be considered is the personal expertise of the photographer when deciding when any camera is to be used by them in any situation.

 

Ah, thanks for clearing up my original misunderstanding. Even if his photos, aquired while bullits are wizzing past him, are great, if he bashes the M8 it's because he lacks expertise. Got it.

 

We all need to assess the physical and technical demands of our work and choose our tools according to our known ability (or lack thereof) to use it.

 

I'm sure if Dr. Kaufmann has a reocurring nightmare, that's gotta be it. :p

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Again, it must be pointed out that all this means is that the M8 doesn't work FOR YOU. It does FOR ME. I don't shoot 1000 images/day for 7 days, or even for one day. Nor do most professional photographers I know. For me, a heavy shoot is around 300 files. I shoot slowly and deliberately and have never--not even once--had the "slowness" of the M8 hamper my shooting.

 

I completely understand what you are saying about the M8, but please try to keep in mind what several of us have been saying repeatedly in other threads--that one can make determinations about the suitability of the M8 for their own work, but cannot correctly assert that this applies to everyone else.

 

Hi Brent,

 

You are right, it is not an effective tool for me - nor for a lot of other photographers - and, like you say, it works perfectly fine for others. The point here is that this should not be a problem with a "pro" camera. Of course it is going to work for some photographers and not for others - most systems are like that. This isn't about ergonomics, or where the buttons are or how the menu is laid out and what functions you or can not set - these are all part of personal taste. My complaint is about the basics. I do not feel as though what I am doing with this camera is extraordinary, but rather a simple working foundation for a piece of gear that is supposed to be part of a professional system. Shooting a lot of images is a basic, very basic, part of a pro system. And, it should be able to do this without breaking down. In the past, an M6 with a couple of lenses was the absolute final safety backup system for many shooters. Small, light and very high quality images - not very user friendly from a client standpoint - but the photographer always knew they could count on it to perform. This camera is too slow with too many hick-ups to be relied upon in the same way.

 

I love shooting with a rangefinder, and I love the digital workflow, but this camera really doesn't cut it. Again, I don't feel as though I am asking something outrageous of this camera.

 

And it is not like I didn't give this "the old collage try". This is my third body - first two went back due to fatal flaws. I have sent ALL my lenses all over the world to try to get them to focus to the same point, and they still are not right.

 

I am not asking this to work at 100 degrees Celsius, nor in -50 degree weather, in a torrential downpour or outer space. All I am asking is that it can shoot more than 11 images before bogging down and leaving me pushing a button that does nothing - I shoot fast and deliberately, I am asking it to not crash if I shoot fast for an extended period of time and I am asking it to focus properly.

 

Pretty basic stuff - and it doesn't do it. These are actually valid complaints, nothing out of the ordinary that I am asking of this camera.

 

Once again, the files this camera produces are wonderful. I really hope they bring this up to a performance level where it belongs. It should be more that satisfactory or acceptable, it should be excellent.

 

P

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Stating what a lot of other photographers might feel about a piece of equipment or have experienced with it, I find a generality.

 

One can speak for one self or the actual people one know of.

 

Michale Kamber does that (speak of his own experience), though he seem a bit more frustrated about it than needed. He has a lot of valid points, but also - as Chris Weeks writes in his blog - some problems Chris did not have. And if he had, he would have solved them.

 

The 'review' could also simply have stated that the M8 is a quiet camera that can save your life in war photography where larger and more noisy cameras would endanger you or make the task impossible. And that it is handy. And probably a few other good things.

 

I somehow feel it could be viewed that way also. And then there's a lot of stuff you can't use an M8 for. As there is a lot of stuff you can't use a Hasselblad or a Sinar for.

 

Perhaps the conclusion simply is that Leica was the tool of the trade for war photographers 30 - almost 40 - years ago. And that it isn't that way anymore. It's frustrating because other cameras aren't that great either, so even the technology has moved so far, one camera is not the answer.

 

At lest that is the frustration I feel myself, because I would prefer only using a small Leica camera but have to use large Leica cameras as well, and can see the need for both fast picture-machines with AF like Canon, as well as his ISO as Nikon.

 

See, that's frustrating.

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Cut (clumsily) from Post #15 by JimmyPro -- I think my browser is playing up.

Originally Posted by erl

Too often, self styled critics are miskaen for experts in an alien field. By that I mean Michael Kamber may be an expert War PJ, but that does NOT make him an expert at camera assessment, IMHO.

 

JimmyPro: That's rich. Whenever some amatuer disses the M8, there comes the old taunt for him to demonstrate his skill as a photographer, as if that does make him an expert at camera assessment. Now when someone who does demonstrate his skill bashes the M8, it's no longer a necessary criteria.

 

Erl: Well, that is YOUR assertion, not mine. I stick to my own statement.

 

Originally Posted by erl Quote:The overriding reality is that most users of M8's do not put the same demands on their camera that a War PJ might.

 

JimmyPro: ROFL. Ya think?

 

Erl: Yes! I do.

 

Originally Posted by erl Quote:Also to be considered is the personal expertise of the photographer when deciding when any camera is to be used by them in any situation.

 

JimmyPro: Ah, thanks for clearing up my original misunderstanding. Even if his photos, aquired while bullits are wizzing past him, are great, if he bashes the M8 it's because he lacks expertise. Got it

 

Erl: Sorry, but you seem to be addressing something that was NOT said by me. I stand by MY statement. Dissagree as you will, but please don't attribute your additions to me.

 

Originally Posted by erl Quote:We all need to assess the physical and technical demands of our work and choose our tools according to our known ability (or lack thereof) to use it.

 

JimmyPro: I'm sure if Dr. Kaufmann has a reocurring nightmare, that's gotta be it.

 

Erl: He too must live in the real world. No virtue in kidding oneself.

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