M8 Iraq field test - ouch...

[sean_reid]

Originally Posted by Roel

Are you blind?

Fortunately, I am not blind but thanks for your concern.

[stnami]

but there are those who are just Leica blind man............... anyway Roel name of the books please, always interested in a Bo-peep at a good book. Sorry but I cannot reciprocate as mine are all Visual Arts texts so they are of little interest here






Sean it's all a bit like so many people misinterpret what Robert Bergman was about with his colour and portraiture

[sean_reid]

Originally Posted by stnami

Sean it's all a bit like so many people misinterpret what Robert Bergman was about with his colour and portraiture

That's quite true.

Cheers,

Sean

[leicajh]

Quote
I was at wedding recently and the pro had this bazooka shaped thing made by a company starting with a C. I was making shots under the same circumstances without anyone noticing what I was doing (except - hey that is an old camera - how cute!). In fact the pro was VERY intrusive. Quote

This reminds me of a time when I had to photograph a suicide. I shot forensics for over 10 years. I used a M2. The OSI Agent -USAF- asked me if my camera was big enough! It was her first death case. I said yes, he will not complain. Most of the time I used Leica Rs while every other team member used Nikon auto focus. I kept up...jh

[terrycioni]

The Kamber article has become a firestorm of M8 bashing across the net. The vaunted Mike Johnson's TOP blog headline was joyous "Roundly and Soundly....", and it goes on from there. Mike was unhappy when someone sent him as he described it 'hate mail', and we should all be unhappy with that type of response as well - these are cameras after all said and done.

The amount of just plain venomous unbridled commentary toward Leica, and Leica owners is somewhat out of proportion. What is that all about? Some of this stuff is unreasonable and immature in my opinion.

Where is all the compassion in the world, if Leica goes down many people will be hurt, and why is that something to celebrate. Is this loss of compassion related to what we have become as a society in the last 8 years or so. I find myself responding with similar discord and try hard to not do so but I to am guilty (mea culpa).

The M8 is a choice right or wrong but a choice none the less. I might add here there are many other choices today and we can argue they are likely better suited to the task in a war zone.

The M8 would not be my choice and Leica has not marketed this camera as such in any of the material I have seen.

In the very early 70's I spent sometime in a war zone called Vietnam. I had a bevy Nikon F and Leica M4s with me as there were no other significant choices at the time. Both performed equally well depending on the circumstances and neither were perfect, indeed far from it. Both cameras had to be meticulously field cleaned to keep them running, and both had problems of one sort or another that had to be worked around.

Upon coming home I had to pretty much scrap one of the M4s and I still have the other which is still very usable. The Nikon F I sold long ago and regret that decision. A Leica M4 back then was about 2.5 times the cost of a Nikon F but it had the advantage of being quieter (mirror slap, etc) and smaller and I assumed would be better suited to situations where stealth was important - both cameras were quiet compared to the distinct rattle of an AK. The Nikon F had the advantage of speedy three frame a second motor drive and no rangefinder to worry about when getting banged around.

There was no Internet to come home to - and write about my experiences shooting with the Leica or Nikon F in a war zone (some of my commentary would not have been nice an example would be; loading both bodies was a pain. Nikon chose to move on Leica did not).

The camera and film are a choice and a tool you work with knowing that it is your skill and your intellectual curiosity that make the pictures be it Leica or Nikon (or whatever your brand maybe). What you want is the camera to work in the circumstance you are in. I did some research and chose Leica and Nikon for that war zone way back in the early early 70s. Today it would most likely be different but rest assured if it were my place to go to Iraq I would spend some doing a PMI on the gear. That all said I am to old to worry about war zones, etc.

I hope Mr. Kamber reviews his choices on his next trip to Iraq.

Best to all of you. Terry.

[Evad1962]

The final conclusion is that the M is not reliable and too old fashionned for pro work in these times.

I've stayed out of this one but read with interest the too-ing & fro-ing. I dunno if this above statement really is the conclusion that Kamber came to, or just Roel's conclusion...let me just say this...I've been shooting weddings / events professionally for about the last 10 years, and using the M8 exclusively (one body & three lenses only) for the last year or so. All I can say is the M8 is the best camera I've ever used - I've shot about 16 000 frames without a single technical problem..no SDS, no card failure..nothing (maybe I've been lucky, touch wood). It is my first digi camera and my first manual focus rangefinder but I've found it just so easy & a joy to use. The quality of the images that this baby produces continues to excite me, and I just recently realised that the 'old-fashioned' aspect of the camera is a great selling point when meeting with couples who are considering my services...most love the retro look and the fact that I can use 40 year old Leica lenses to capture images with a distinctive look that just aren't possible, period, with modern-day Canon or Nikon equipment. Probably 95% of wedding photogs over here are using those brands and I'm really pleased not to be, plus the fact that the M8 in my experience is far less intimidating (size & styling-wise) to the punters standing on the other side of the lens.

So getting back to the above quote from Roel, 'not reliable' for professional use? - not from my experience, it's been extremely reliable in lots of would-be stressful, 'must get the shot' sort of moments - too 'old fashioned'?..I love that about this camera, maybe it's a nostalgia thing, but a certain proportion of people will always yearn for something classic from an earlier, perhaps simpler, age.

...and as for Mr Kamber, if he thinks Iraq is a dangerous place to earn money, he should try arriving at Bridezilla's house an hour before the wedding when she's just broken a nail!!! (tongue very obviously planted firmly in cheek here..wink..wink..quite heavy sarcasm attached as well)

Come on guys, stop bagging the M8...what did it ever do to you?

[erl]

Evad1962,

You are pretty close to "on the money" with your observations. I would agree that shooting a wedding "Leica Style" is every bit as 'dangerous' as shooting "Mr Kamber Style". Be it upon the reader to decide where my tongue is.

The only equivalent risk absent at the wedding is the risk of death, and even that IS a possibility. (I have seriously faced that).

Paraphrasing something I said somewhere, as have others; "The M8 has some very specific values that can be brought to an assignment, along with some specific shortcomings. CLEARLY, the misuse of the camera when the shortcomings are a distict problem can ONLY be blamed on the photographer. That is not negotiable. Outside that problem scenario, the M8 is excellent. Craftsmen choose their tools wisely.

[lxlim]

Originally Posted by Roel

...... And the market for the daily work is very much quite different than in the fifties.......

Roel,

Actually I think the market really remains the same. A photographer that is in demand because of his style and quality of work, vision and craftsmanship rarely gets questioned about the tools he uses. As such he does not lack the work he needs to make a living.

Most clients are not knowledgeable about our tools but they are generally very knowledgeable about their needs and the cost of meeting them.

It is the demand and supply of talent not the tools. This is not a comment on your skills but rather the fact that if a lot of photographers are equally and interchangeably skillful in the market, then inevitably with a lesser market share it becomes much harder to raise your eyes away from the grind of daily work to develop creative styles and work to differentiate.

Or maybe it is really the limitation of the local market you are in. A market that does not have a broad and diverse spectrum of needs for the different sorts of photography work may naturally need only a general and but very versatile tool like the SLR.

Which makes it very difficult for Leica to find a market of a niche tool like the range-finder. They can only start with their already existing clients and re-built from there. They probably were not expecting professionals to be enthusiastic. With some positive reviews, they were probably encouraged to return to the crucible where they built their reputation.

And Kambers rightly pointed out the inadequacies for him and his work. He does not speak for all PJs. Just himself. In his case the only thing Leica can do is to build an M good enough to turn that opinion.

Note that it is not nostalgia but need that drives his desire to use a range-finder. His passion is for his work and how his tools acquit themselves for his work. His 5D allows him to do his job better but not for every aspect. It's a different tool.

[stnami]

....... most of the world couldn't give a rat's arse ...........

[wilfredo]

My 2 cents can be found here: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-...ournalist.html

It looks like we have two threads going on this topic. I found the review quite interesting, real, and genuine. I'm really glad not to be out there documenting wars. I tip my hat to those who do and wish them Godspeed.

Cheers,
Wilfredo
Benitez-Rivera Photography

[stnami]

documenting wars

....... in turn becomes "the promoting of the dead"

[ho_co]

Originally Posted by wilfredo

It looks like we have two threads going on this topic.

Actually, three threads. See also http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-...el-kamber.html

[lxlim]

Originally Posted by stnami

....... in turn becomes "the promoting of the dead"

Interesting thought. Voyeurism?

When the feeding of sights of the cruelty and pain becomes the norm, do we recoil or are we indifferent?

[lxlim]

Originally Posted by stnami

....... most of the world couldn't give a rat's arse ...........

Does look like a country-side delicacy? How do they season it?

[stnami]

It's always been a problem ...... the mixing of aesthetics and the documenting of wars

[lxlim]

Some would call its facts or a presentation of the truth of war rather than aesthetics.

[stnami]

When one starts playing , with the complimentary colours i.e. red/ green, blue/orange etc. to evoke a emotional response ...... aggressive tonal graduations ........... the fuzzy haze of a muted palette ............... light emerging from dark or visa versa.............as well as the carefull compositional considerations of people object relationships,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,, it becomes a whole new ball game, facts no longer hold the same meaning







or


This Magazine: War photography is hell

David Hockney: We can't trust photographs | | guardian.co.uk Arts

Inside Photography - New York Times

artnet.com Magazine Features -- The Real Thing

Vlog, Videoblog: James Nachtwey : War photographer | Vlog . Videoblog . Interviews

ekathimerini.com | Praising life’s beauty in war and peace


and!!!

Boris Mikhailov - Photography - The Saatchi Gallery

[lxlim]

Originally Posted by stnami

When one starts playing , with the complimentary colours i.e. red/ green, blue/orange etc. to evoke a emotional response ...... aggressive tonal graduations ........... the fuzzy haze of a muted palette ............... light emerging from dark or visa versa.............as well as the carefull compositional considerations of people object relationships,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,, it becomes a whole new ball game, facts no longer hold the same meaning
[/url]

And hence the original context can get hijacked as a pretext for personal agendas.

Thanks for the links. I would like to be able to explore this a little further.

[SJP]

Back to the topic at hand - what are his points actually?

Framelines - depends on whether you prefer missing some shots due to inadvertent loss of info, the current framelines make sure you get it all & you can crop afterwards. If you are switching beteen film and m8 then I can see that this could be annoying.

Controls - on/off stiffness can be adjusted by Leica or maybe someone can make a 'locking device'? Back - adjusting ISO by accident is very unlikely (set, set, scroll to different iso, set). Is there a multi button press fast iso change that we do not know of? So wrong ISO is strange but having recessed buttons does make sense for this type of situation. A transparent rubber sticker of 2-3 mm thick with holes at the location of the buttors would solve this more elegantly than gaffer tape.

Exposure controls - maybe manual control would be better? I normally tend to use A but when it gets tight then manual control is more consistent & faster. I can see the point that the selector does not have a detent so counting is impossible. EDIT: in fact the A setting is stiffer than the other shutter dial settings - I get 100% reliable blindfold A setting, admittedly in the comfort of my house not in a war zone bouncing over potholes with bullets and worse flying overhead.

Color correction: he was using the old firmware, not an issue anymore

Automatic exposure: use manual or AE-lock when dealing with highlights

Speeds in finder - OK that should be possible in firmware

Low light capability - I agree that a higher ISO would be nice but ISO 2500 is useable if neccesary (esp. B&W), no fast & wide lens OK we need one. The 28 cron is fast and wide but not wide enough for some. However the examples of low light performance shown are atypical. Just check the web for low light examples using the M8 - there are plenty.

Buffer and sluggishness: he was using jpg, that is a bad idea in general. The M8 should not be used with in camera jpg unless you are on a leasurely holiday, and even then its a bad idea. Use DNG only and run the files though a fast DNG to jpg converter on your computer. When I went to a demo of the M8 after the first shot I tried I asked the guy to switch the jpg option off as the camera seemed far too slow (and that was the old firmware, new firmware is even slower). The next thing I did was to buy the camera & use DNG only.

Overall sluggishness: see previous.

SD card removal: for me the retro-base is fine, making an alternative base with a 'door' for battery and SD card I believe has been done already. Maybe Leica should consider this as an option (a-la-carte in gold)?

Filters: OK but he needs to calculate the price difference with normal (non IR) filters which I am sure he uses to protect his lenses. That would be about half the amount he mentions?

Lack of depth of field: this is weird - the same lens & aperture on the M8 has a smaller DOF due to the smaller circle of confusion compared to film. In the photo's he shows he compares a 21 ASPH on M8 with a 24mm on the 5D, presumably at different apertures but these are not mentioned (EDIT: 2.8 for the 21, 1.4 for the Canon 24 f/1.4 L? Then it is apples and pears.)

Build quality: I find the build quality excellent - but others have had issues. Service seems to be improving in efficiency which would be good news.

His summary:
Quote 1: 'In most situations, usually in bright daylight, it will yield a usable image if one is willing to put in some time with Photoshop.' This is a gross exaggeration.

Qoute 2: 'I have found the Leica M8 to be unreliable, poorly designed, and to deliver substandard results in most of the situations in which I have used it. I can’t think of any camera--or for that matter any electronic device I have recently used--that so thoroughly fails to live up to its potential and its heritage.' I have not seen any website with M8 shots that were so consistently awful - I find it hard to believe that he did not get better results than this. So is it unbiased? He is not fully satisfied with his M8 for this type of work - but that is no reason to exaggerate the faults.

[stnami]

............. Re: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test



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