50mm Rigid Summicron or 50mm Summitar for M8?

[papih]

Hi,
I have a chance to buy either a 50 rigid summicron or 50mm summitar. The seller said the rigid is from 1966, and i dunno about the summitar. Is there any method to define the production year by the serial numbers?
The main usage of this lens is for daylight walkaround lens and portraiture.
I need recommendations on which lens that's better with M8. I Already have a 50 lux, so i dont need the super sharp and ultra contrasty. I wanted to have an old leica lens feel.
Probably the one with (the sacred words) leica glow and better bokeh?

And how about the handling and care (flare, coatings, front/rear scratch resistance, haze).
Which one need more special care in storage? Btw, i put all my leica glass in a electronic-controlled dry cabinet.

Tried to find comparison of those two lenses, but so far havent find a side-by-side comparison.

Thank you for any info on this.

[cbretteville]

Lens serial numbers by year (we should put this in the Wiki) LeicaLenses serial number and production year - Leica Objektiv Serienummer

I have a Summitar, it came with a IIIf I acquired last autumn. Works fine on the M8, collapses too. The Summitar doesn't have click stops for the aperture settings, I believe the 'Cron has. Overall the handeling of the 'Cron will be better. The Summitar needs a hood to help with flare. and the one that was made for it is ridiculous, SOOFM I beleive.

From what I read, a 1966 'Cron will be a better lens in all aspects, but the Summitar will probably give you more of an older look simply because it is an older design. Flare etc will depend on when your lens was made.

I'm attaching some Summitar shots. My lens is from 1951. The first one is wide open, the second and third ones I'm not sure, probably around f4. These are all qick and dirty conversions in C1v4 straight to forum sized JPGs. The only processing I did was to set the WB.

Early morning in October at Lysaker outside Oslo.
L1004229_3.jpg

L1004246.jpg

L1004254.jpg

- Carl

[andybarton]

Carl

That lens "glows" beautifully.

[cbretteville]

Its got its own character thats for sure (as does my 1951 35mm Summaron).

One thing I forgot to mention was the filter thread for the 'Cron is a convenient E39, for the Summitar it is a custom fit, labeled 'for Summitar' so no UV/IR filter.

- Carl

[papih]

Originally Posted by cbretteville

Its got its own character thats for sure (as does my 1951 35mm Summaron).

One thing I forgot to mention was the filter thread for the 'Cron is a convenient E39, for the Summitar it is a custom fit, labeled 'for Summitar' so no UV/IR filter.

- Carl

WOW! Before seeing your images, I leaned more to the cron just because of so many appraisal, and even stated as a legendary lens status by some. But your image samples from the summitar is a beauty.

I assume that it was taken with an M8? Older designed (in this case from 1951) optics definitely hold its own strengths. Btw, how's the lens condition? Is it coated or not or re-coated?

But the filter thread also played an important factor in deciding which lens to acquire, especially if used with M8.

Again, thanks for the images.

[LeonardT]

Originally Posted by cbretteville

Its got its own character thats for sure (as does my 1951 35mm Summaron).

One thing I forgot to mention was the filter thread for the 'Cron is a convenient E39, for the Summitar it is a custom fit, labeled 'for Summitar' so no UV/IR filter.

- Carl

I have made two UV/IR filters for the Summitar. One for me and one for a friend. You will need a Summiter filter with a screw-out retaining ring for the filter glass. The Summitar was also made with a press-in retaining ring. You can't use this type filter. Then get a 39mm Heliopan digital UV/IR filter and remove the glass and use it in place of the glass in the Summitar. Use the Heliopan filter as the retaining ring can be removed much more easily then the B+W. You can also use the Leica 39mm UV/IR filter but they are more expensive. One hint. Remove the filter ring in the Summitar by first loosening the thread in lighter fluid. You should have a lens spanner wrench for this conversion. The Heliopan retainer has no slots for a spanner but can be removed with the rubber friction remover rings. Both tools are available on line. I just forget where I got mine. If you plan on making this filter you better start looking for any Summitar filter with the removable retainer ring. They're getting harder to find now and be sure of what you're buying.

I have both the rigid Summicron and the Summitar and use them both on my M8. Both lenses are superb performers on the M8. I find that both lenses, which have very clear glass, give very similar performance. I might give a slight nod to the rigid. But whichever lens you get make sure it has no haze or get it CLA'd otherwise the contrast will suffer.

Another advantage of using a filter on the Summitar, besides the obvious IR compensation, is the 12585 lens hood can be used as it clicks in to the grove between the filter and the end of the lens barrel. It's much more practical then the Summitar hood.

Len

[lars_bergquist]

My guess is that you would get more or less the same 'glow' (medium contrast plus irradiation) with the Summicron, as the distance in time is not too great. And the 'cron is certainly more convenient.

Re collapsible lenses: Leica say that no collapsible lenses except the (just discontinued) 50mm 2.8. Elmar and the current Macro-Elmar may be used. In the case of the old collapsible 90mm 1:4 Elmar it is even true! In all other cases I know of (collapsible 50mm Elmar 3.5 and 2.8, Summitar) the reason is that Leica fear that they will be blamed if somebody mounts or dismounts a collapsed lens askew, and manages to scratch or dent something inside, probably the little meter cell deck-house. So don't do that! Mount or remove a collapsible lens only in the extended state, and you should be safe, even if you collapse it on the camera afterwards.

How it is with the collapsible Summicron I do not know. Has anybody tried it?

The old man from the Age of the 3.5 Elmar

[innerimager]

Two questions about the 50 cron, rigid. It is also designated "5 cm" on the lens. What does that mean? Also, it has a lock for infinity focus which I haven't seen on other lenses. Anyone know this history? I have one that lives on my M7 used for B&W. It draws very beautifully, low contrast, very sharp at 2.0, great tonality. I only just got an IR filter for it and will give it a go on the M8. best....Peter

[papih]

CMIIW,

5cm equals 50mm. probably in the past they used to have the focal lengths in cm instead of mm.
As for the infinity lock, i dont know. I guess probably for better gripping when someone's changing lens, or probably required to have the focus locked at infinity when someone's want to dismount the lens. Again, CMMIW.

[luigi bertolotti]

Originally Posted by innerimager

Two questions about the 50 cron, rigid. It is also designated "5 cm" on the lens. What does that mean? Also, it has a lock for infinity focus which I haven't seen on other lenses. Anyone know this history? I have one that lives on my M7 used for B&W. It draws very beautifully, low contrast, very sharp at 2.0, great tonality. I only just got an IR filter for it and will give it a go on the M8. best....Peter

"5cm" instead of "50" is typical of the older lenses... Leitz used to express focal lengths in cm for years, before and after WWII, and changed after Summicron 50 birth. (Curiosity: the very very FIRST Leica lenses of '24 / '25 were indeed marked "50 mm", but changed after few hundreds items).

The infinity lock / tab is another case of "classic Leitz" , born with the first Leica cameras: with lenses like the retractables (Elmar or even Summicron) or the "supercompacts" (old 28s and 35s) is useful to operate the focus ring: they maintained it for a while also on lenses like the rigid Summicron, which has an easily manageable focus ring... then they abandoned it.

[cbretteville]

Originally Posted by papih

WOW! Before seeing your images, I leaned more to the cron just because of so many appraisal, and even stated as a legendary lens status by some. But your image samples from the summitar is a beauty.

I assume that it was taken with an M8? Older designed (in this case from 1951) optics definitely hold its own strengths. Btw, how's the lens condition? Is it coated or not or re-coated?

But the filter thread also played an important factor in deciding which lens to acquire, especially if used with M8.

Again, thanks for the images.

Thanks, just test shots really, but the morning light is what makes them work.

The lens is in excellent condition. No haze or fungus, glass is perfect. Some wear on the rim from filter usage and a few specs of dust inside, but that doesn't matter. It is going to DAG for a CLA non the less (together with the IIIf) as the aperture ring is hard to set. It is an easy fix, according to Don.

Summitar1_web.jpg Summitar2_web.jpg

Not bad looking for a 57 year old.
- Carl

[innerimager]

Originally Posted by papih

5cm equals 50mm.

of course! duh! thanks....Peter

[papih]

One question though, anyone can confirm that you can disambled the cron by bare hands just by turning the lens barrell?
is this normal?
I'm a little bit surpised, because you couldnt do such things on a modern day lens.

Btw, attached below is the picture of the summitar. I couldnt see it in person because of the location of the seller.

[innerimager]

Originally Posted by papih

One question though, anyone can confirm that you can disambled the cron by bare hands just by turning the lens barrell?
is this normal?.

Yes, you can remove the head of the old 50 cron just by unscrewing it.

[cbretteville]

For use on a Visoflex?
- Carl

[innerimager]

yes

[roguewave]

papih, I purchased a collapsible "5cm" Summicron, sn 1190307, simulatneously with my "new" M3 from a German dealer. It has a wonderful signature. I think it is a little treasure. It is tact sharp in the right lighting and stopped down a hair. It's best use for me is wide-open in soft light. The images are timeless looking and with the correct toning, indistinguishable from fine photos from the 50's. A very delicate and timeless feel. Makes a wonderul portait lens for people with charachter, finely aged (I consider myself in this bracket) and for older woman that don't like to see evrey remnant of the past on their personage. I highly recommend it and very much enjoy it's use.

[lars_bergquist]

Don't worry about '5cm' or '50mm'. Both are untrue. Ever since the first Leitz Anastigmat of 1925, Leitz/Leica Standard lenses have been designed for a focal length of 52mm or a little less – but definitely more than 50mm!

The old man from the Age of the 3.5 Elmar

[wlaidlaw]

Carl and Len,

Thanks for the filter info. Now that I have acquired an LTM to M adapter with my 35 Skopar Classic, I will give the Summitar II (serial number 980100) off my IIF a go on the M8. I will now be looking out for a filter holder for the Summitar from ePrey. Do you know if the collapsible Summitar II (the hex diaphragm model), uses the same tapered thread filter? I am guessing it does. I am surprised that the Summitar collapses, I thought only the final version Elmar 50 and the current Elmar 90 could do that safely but it is great news if it does. I agree about the "barn door" hood it is horrible. My father used to have a very nice little hood, which fitted on the outside of the lens. It was held on by a small knurled knob, which squeezed a crescent shaped pad on the inside of the hood but that disappeared when his IIIC got stolen in a car break in.

Wilson