Summilux Concerns

[Jamie Roberts]

Originally Posted by rosuna

I have a 35mm Summilux, Noctilux and 75mm Summilux and all of them back focus wide open. The problem is worse at minimum distance and it worsen with the focal length too.

I cannot send three lenses and my camera for adjusting, so I try to compensate it.

If all three of those lenses back focus wide open, then I'd suspect infinity adjustment on the RF.

It's conceivable all three could be off in the same way (it's certainly not a design point of the lenses), but not very likely.

Do you have a 90 'cron? I'd check that too. Usually getting the 90 cron or 75 Lux to work wide open at close range does the trick for the 35 and Nocti too (though my Nocti does shift focus when I stop down).

[Eoin]

Originally Posted by wlaidlaw

....It goes to show that the lens can be made to both focus correctly and have minimal aperture shift, if it is done properly. I feel Leica's explanations about inherent aperture shift on this lens, are excuses for sloppy manufacture, adjustment and checking. If they can get it right on one lens, they can get it right on all of them....

My thoughts exactly and my experience with my ex chrome 35 Summilux Asph.

[hankg]

The first thing I did when I got my M8 was send it to DAG to check the RF calibration (it was dead on from the factory). Without knowing that your RF is calibrated properly forget about trying to sort out which lenses are OK.

I purchased a 50/1.4 preASPH and 75 lux which were a mile out and a well used 35 Lux that was perfect. A trip to DAG for the 50 and 75 and they were back to dead on spec. The complex mechanical nature of the RF focusing system requires periodic maintenance to keep it in spec. I've found this true of every RF I've ever used, Mamiya, Plaubel and Leica. Of course with film Leica's many were blissfully unaware of mis-calibration in their systems but with the advent of real time pixel level review and perfectly flat sensors digital is a lot less forgiving.

It is simply a reality of complex old fashioned mechanical systems like old car engines before computer controlled fuel injection and engine management that they require tuning periodically.

[wlaidlaw]

Do I get the feeling that one is more likely to get a good chrome/brass body ASPH lux than a black/alloy body one - particularly the 35? Pity they have deleted it from the catalogue. Forum poll?

Wilson

PS For those itching to tell me - I do know brass is an alloy too but in common usage, alloy = aluminium alloy.

[jimmy pro]

It's clear from the different reports that there must be a wide sample variation between lenses. What I don't get is considering how severe the focus is off on these lenses how it wasn't noticed on film. Thickness of film isn't enough to explain it completely.

[hankg]

Originally Posted by jimmy pro

It's clear from the different reports that there must be a wide sample variation between lenses. What I don't get is considering how severe the focus is off on these lenses how it wasn't noticed on film. Thickness of film isn't enough to explain it completely.

With the M8 everyone gets to see their images blown up on the computer screen 10,000% instantly. Many film shooters never made really large prints. And often the lag between shooting and seeing a print could be weeks or even months. A lot of amatuer color work was only seen as drug store prints. Film is not flat it bows slightly so some of the image might be in focus at wide open apertures due to the varying film plane. All of that can mask a lot of problems for a very long time.

In addition there is a lot more focus among 35mm shooters on resolution and sharpness now then in the past. Normally the focus on technical perfection is more associated with large format while small format is more focused on content and emotion. Many of the modestly sized prints which are considered iconic of small format photography are not that sharp when you inspect them up close. I think it was Cartier-Bresson who said something to the affect that sharpness was a bourgeois concept.

[jimmy pro]

I'd agree with your every work Hank, if you were talking about any other camera. But so many Leica guys have always been obsessed with taking pictures of resolution charts more than real subjects that it's a running joke among photogs. I just can't imagine they didn't notice such extreme back/front focus before.

[pklein]

Somebody should probably take their retired(?) film M and M8 and shoot off some focus and focus shift tests with the same lenses on each body. That would answer the question of how much of a role film vs. sensor plays.

The trouble is, once you've got an M8 in your hands, who wants to do that? The only time I've shot my M6 since I got the M8 was for a classical concert where I needed the quieter shutter.

--Peter

[jimmy pro]

Originally Posted by pklein

The only time I've shot my M6 since I got the M8 was for a classical concert where I needed the quieter shutter.

--Peter

ROFL! Like anyone would notice the difference with a symphony orchestra playing, unless the photog is such a dumbass he shoots between movements when the instruments are in their laps. That's why Leica can get people to pay $1800 for a shutter that's like half a decibel quieter.

[luigi bertolotti]

Originally Posted by jimmy pro

It's clear from the different reports that there must be a wide sample variation between lenses. What I don't get is considering how severe the focus is off on these lenses how it wasn't noticed on film. Thickness of film isn't enough to explain it completely.

I think that in MY case there are some trivial explanations :

- With film, I didn't partecipate in any forum...
- With film, I rarely used lenses wide open
- With film, I undoubtly tended to confuse back focusing with sharpness : when seeing a 20x30 (my TYPICAL enlargment....) made say, with Lux 35 or 50 at 1,4 (both OLD, keep in mind) I sometime observed "well, a little soft wide open..."
- And, above all, I NEVER made a proper focus test with my film bodies... once in my life, I got CLAed my M4... including RF calibration, and from then simply thought "now focus is surely ok..."

[stunsworth]

Originally Posted by jimmy pro

ROFL! Like anyone would notice the difference with a symphony orchestra playing, unless the photog is such a dumbass he shoots between movements when the instruments are in their laps.

Hi Jimmy, it may be something you are not aware of, but the dynamic range of a symphony orchestra when it is playing can be stunning. Not only are the loud bits _very_ loud, but the quiet bits can be very quiet indeed. It's quite possible for the musicians to be playing and any sound from the auditorium be audible. Hence the need for the quietest shutter possible - the photographer isn't being a 'dumbass', he or she is just using their intelligence.

Of course this is less of a consideration at a trash metal concert.

[wlaidlaw]

Just to show what a good 35 ASPH Lux is capable of, here is one taken in an indoor market in Martinique a couple of weeks ago, wide open (f1.4) hand held at 1/45 sec. I also show a crop of the focus area.

Wilson

[charlesphoto99]

Just working on some images at the moment. This is of a clinic for drug addicted babies.

This shot, which is considered for a dbl spread is with a 35 Lux asph at about f1.4/2 split if I recall at iso 1250. Converted in C1V4 with just a smidge of Noise Ninja. This is why I keep this lens around.

[dalippe]

I haven't read all of the other replies so I don't know if I am adding anything new:

1. I sympathize with your complaints about Leica. I'd like to say their service dept is a joke, but given how much people spend on this equipment, the truth is that it is a tragedy. I have posted about this various times myself, most recently starting the following thread:

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-...vice-rant.html

The punch line is that I sent some lenses to DAG and if DAG does as good a job as others claim he will, from now on I'm just sending stuff to DAG, warranty or not. My time and sanity are worth more to me than the relatively inexpensive DAG repair charges.

2. Regarding the 50 Lux, I say go for it. It may be my favorite Leica lens. At f/1.4, it is razor sharp on the focal plane and nicely soft everywhere else.

I bought a new one that back focused out of the box and had a focus ring with some catches in it. I sent it back and after the usual multi-month turnaround time it actually focused correctly (although they hadn't fixed the feel of the focus ring at all). Pathetic as it sounds this ranks as my best ever Leica service experience. One out of two problems fixed after only one multi-month trip to Germany. Amazing that a company could have such poor QC and service that a customer will be pleased when a brand new lens requires two repairs, and one is actually accomplished after a multi-month trip. I guess there are advantages to keeping the customer's expectations at rock bottom.

[rosuna]

Originally Posted by Jamie Roberts

If all three of those lenses back focus wide open, then I'd suspect infinity adjustment on the RF.

It's conceivable all three could be off in the same way (it's certainly not a design point of the lenses), but not very likely.

Do you have a 90 'cron? I'd check that too. Usually getting the 90 cron or 75 Lux to work wide open at close range does the trick for the 35 and Nocti too (though my Nocti does shift focus when I stop down).

The RF is a possibility. It is easy to adjust, and a professional could do it here, in Madrid (I suppose).

Thanks.

[lars_bergquist]

I think the picture examples are telling. This is not so much a photographic problem as a psychological one, an obsession getting out of hand. Do this:

Make as series of pictures of a bookshelf at about 30–45° angle, distance 2.5–3m. Start at 1.4 and close down successively until you reach 5.6, focusing all the time on the same point. Blow the images up to A4. I did, and found that the point I focused on remained visually sharp. And if you can do a sharp A4, you can do anything.

Howls of disbelief! Can I make a sharp two by three meter print? Yes you can – because A4 is the largest print you can view comfortably as a unitary image at normal reading distance. A print subtending a wider angle will have to be viewed from a correspondingly greater distance, if you are to see it as an image. A 2x3m has to be viewed from abt. 3m – and a 2x3kilometers print from two miles! You can of course go over a meter-size print from ten inches/25cm, or for that matter with a magnifier, hunting for imperfections, but then you are monomaniacal.

All superspeed lenses exhibit focus shift. The question is, how significant is it? And that is a practical question, to be decided under practical conditions.

[thrid]

If DAG is fully booked, send it to Sherry Krauter at Golden Touch. She's the other top repair shop in the States. I've used both of them for years and they are the best.

If you are in Canada try Gerry Smith at KIndermann. Excellent work and very good turnaround times.

See here for contact information:

: :LHSA : : Independent Camera Repair Facilities


Leica better get their act together. We are hearing too many complaints about QC issues, both for items being serviced and new in the the box.

[jimmy pro]

I've used Sherry for body repairs and she's pretty decent. DAG has an M8 himself which he can check the lenses on, I'm not sure if Sherry does and that's something I'd ask her point blank before I'd let her adjust a lens for an M8. Jerry Smith at Kindermann's been around since I was a kid. What is he by now, 90?

[dritz]

I recently (January) asked Sherry about calibrating lenses for the M8 (she did a beautiful job overhauling an old 35 'lux... before the M8). She does not yet calibrate for the M8. DAG, however, does so.

[jimmy pro]

Originally Posted by dritz

I recently (January) asked Sherry about calibrating lenses for the M8 (she did a beautiful job overhauling an old 35 'lux... before the M8). She does not yet calibrate for the M8. DAG, however, does so.

Sherry is honest as the day is long, if she says she can't do it she can't.