M8 and Tele-Elmar

[photolandscape]

I bought what was advertised as a somewhat worn, but optically and mechanically excellent 135mm Tele-Elmar to use on my M8's. It appealed to me because I wanted something that would allow me to pick off distant details, and it effectively translates into a 180mm lens with the M8's crop factor.

Even when mounted on a tripod in bright light conditions, at f/8 or f/11, the results are out-of-focus. At infinity, it is almost acceptable, but at 20 meters for example, it is pretty awful.

This may be a stupid question, but is it rangefinder coupled (I know there are not framelines for it, but should I be able to put a 1.5X magnifier on it, and use the split-image to get a sharp image)? Or did I get a bum lens?

And last but not least, is there any sort of aftermarket viewfinder that would work with the 135mm Tele-Elmar on the M8 to give you a frameline fairly close to 180mm focal length?

Thanks.

[Shootist]

Originally Posted by photolandscape

I bought what was advertised as a somewhat worn, but optically and mechanically excellent 135mm Tele-Elmar to use on my M8's. It appealed to me because I wanted something that would allow me to pick off distant details, and it effectively translates into a 180mm lens with the M8's crop factor.

Even when mounted on a tripod in bright light conditions, at f/8 or f/11, the results are out-of-focus. At infinity, it is almost acceptable, but at 20 meters for example, it is pretty awful.

This may be a stupid question, but is it rangefinder coupled (I know there are not framelines for it, but should I be able to put a 1.5X magnifier on it, and use the split-image to get a sharp image)? Or did I get a bum lens?

And last but not least, is there any sort of aftermarket viewfinder that would work with the 135mm Tele-Elmar on the M8 to give you a frameline fairly close to 180mm focal length?

Thanks.

Set up a target at about 6-10 feet from the camera. Focus the lens using the rangefinder and take a shot. Then focus past the target, longer distance and take a shot. Then move the focusing ring to closer distance a little at a time and take a shot at each movement until you have set the focusing ring at a short distance on the distance scale. Review each shot to see which one is in focus or more in focus then when the lens was focused correctly according to the rangefinder.
Simple fact it this lens is off and need to be adjusted. Maybe you should return it.
I have a Summicron-C 40mm that does something similar. When focused at a target 5 feet away the image is totally blurred. If I turn the focusing ring to about 3 feet the image is more in focus. It is going to DAG at the first chance I have to send it.

Oh yes that lens is rangefinder coupled.

[johnastovall]

A TEWE will give the 180mm frame lines.

[rickp13]

hello
this won't be a complete answer by any means, just some moral support from another forum member.

i recently bought a 135mm hektor, nice price, for the same reasons and purpose you mentioned. it has an M bayonet, no filter or coding yet (to be determined).

mine is rangefinder coupled and, using the megapearls 1.35 magnifier with diopter adjustment, my first impression is that is pretty easy to focus. for framing, i followed a lead from another forum thread and, when mounting the lens, turned it "past the click" to bring up the 90mm frame lines. this allows you to use the rangefinder patch as a center, and the 90mm frame lines as a generous guide to where the 135 frame might be.

you might have some luck finding an optical viewfinder on ebay - just search under "viewfinder" or "viewfinder 180mm" and let ebay send you an email when new items are listed. it's a long shot, but worth a try.

i'm sorry but i don't have an explanation for out of focus at infinity. mine focuses there or closer without problem. the snapshot below was at 1/250 at f4, iso 160. my curious experience with the hektor - i need to compensate by stopping down about 1 1/3 EV to get the exposure right.

good luck!

rick

[photolandscape]

Originally Posted by johnastovall

A TEWE will give the 180mm frame lines.

Wow, I had no idea such a gadget even existed. Is it still being made, or should I get on this forum, Rangefinderforum.com, eBay, etc. and find a used one that way?

Thanks for suggesting it.

[johnastovall]

Originally Posted by photolandscape

Wow, I had no idea such a gadget even existed. Is it still being made, or should I get on this forum, Rangefinderforum.com, eBay, etc. and find a used one that way?

Thanks for suggesting it.

They haven't been made in over 40 year and a good one will run about US$200 on eBay.

You'll see them cheaper but beware of fogged lenses.

[chris_tribble]

I use the 135 Apo Telyt to very good effect with no added finder (and usually not bothering with the Leica magnifier. I've done the same as Guy Mancuso and when I had mine coded had it set to bring up the 90mm framelines. I can frame with good accuracy setting a point between the focusing patch and the 90mm frame as the image limit. Works for me + no problem to focus.

Examples can be seen at: The English Lake District

All the closeups are with the 135.

[colorflow]

Originally Posted by photolandscape

I
Even when mounted on a tripod in bright light conditions, at f/8 or f/11, the results are out-of-focus. At infinity, it is almost acceptable, but at 20 meters for example, it is pretty awful.

This may be a stupid question, but is it rangefinder coupled (I know there are not framelines for it, but should I be able to put a 1.5X magnifier on it, and use the split-image to get a sharp image)? Or did I get a bum lens?


.

Yes, this lens is coupled.
It has the detachable optical head for Visoflex. There are probably several shims for adjuasting the optical element to film plane distance. One or more of these shims may have been lost over the years. Try unsrewing it and see if there is any shims. Add shims if the lens is backfocusing and vice versa. You may be able to get the shims from DAG if needed...

Alan

[redfalo]

Originally Posted by photolandscape

I bought what was advertised as a somewhat worn, but optically and mechanically excellent 135mm Tele-Elmar to use on my M8's. It appealed to me because I wanted something that would allow me to pick off distant details, and it effectively translates into a 180mm lens with the M8's crop factor.

Even when mounted on a tripod in bright light conditions, at f/8 or f/11, the results are out-of-focus. At infinity, it is almost acceptable, but at 20 meters for example, it is pretty awful.

This may be a stupid question, but is it rangefinder coupled (I know there are not framelines for it, but should I be able to put a 1.5X magnifier on it, and use the split-image to get a sharp image)? Or did I get a bum lens?

And last but not least, is there any sort of aftermarket viewfinder that would work with the 135mm Tele-Elmar on the M8 to give you a frameline fairly close to 180mm focal length?

Thanks.

Of course the rangefinder is coupled with the Tele-Elmar 4/135. To me your experience sounds like there is something wrong with the lens. Do you have another rangefinder where you could try it? I have a Tele Elmar from 1966 and love it on my M8. Mine is not coded (I use it on the M7 with a 0.72 rangefinder and a frameline for the 135mm, too) but I chose the 90mm frameline manually. When you chose something between the focusing patch and the frameline for the 90mm it works quite well als you can see here, for example:
2241775552_92a52df6b7.jpg

Yours Olaf

[photolandscape]

Originally Posted by colorflow

Yes, this lens is coupled.
It has the detachable optical head for Visoflex. There are probably several shims for adjuasting the optical element to film plane distance. One or more of these shims may have been lost over the years. Try unsrewing it and see if there is any shims. Add shims if the lens is backfocusing and vice versa. You may be able to get the shims from DAG if needed...

Alan

I will check for shims. Can you describe what one looks like, and where I should expect to find it? Also, maybe a dumb question, but what is DAG? Thanks for your help.

[colorflow]

Originally Posted by photolandscape

I will check for shims. Can you describe what one looks like, and where I should expect to find it? Also, maybe a dumb question, but what is DAG? Thanks for your help.

You can unscrew the front element by holding the focusing ring with one hand and the front part of the lens with the other. The front element unscrews and the shims are flat brass rings that goes over the threaded part and between the front and back lens pieces.

Here is the link for DAG DAG Camera Parts In any case, Don Goldberg there can fix the focusing problem.

Alan

[rclewis]

I have had this lens for for a long time, and when I first mounted on my M-8 it was not coupled to the rangfinder because the piece connecting the helical in the lens to the rangfinder arm was stuck (probably from lack of use). Physically moving the metal finger with the lens off the camera got it working again, and it can be focussed accurately with the eyepiece magnifier in place and extra care..

[adan]

Well, there is a reason Leica left out the 135 lines on the M8, and specifically says the use of the 135 is "not recommended". An effective 180mm lens is well past the upper limit of what the Leica rangefinder base can handle reliably, based on the math and geometry.

That being said, many of us get them to work, and if yours is off by that much, something is not right somewhere in the focusing chain.

It has been my experience with Leica Ms that, with any focal length above 50mm, not all lenses work well with just any body. The lens and body may both be within tolerances - but if they happen to be JUST within tolerances at opposite ends of the tolerance range, the total in-tolerance will be large enough to screw things up.

The early 135TE's, of the type with the removable head, also use a push-rod to connect the focusing ring deep inside the back of the lens to the camera's RF roller. A spring acts to hold the inner tip of the push-rod tight against the lens cam.

Sometimes the spring gets weak, or the push-rod gets sticky with old lubricant, and no longer "tracks" accurately, or skips and jumps. That is also worth a check. The tip of the push rod is the little trapezoidal brass chunk (black-painted) that is centered in the curved cutout of the lens mount flange.

With the lens off the camera, you should be able to see this tip move in and out smoothly while turning the focus ring. If it is sticking or jumping, it needs service.

[photolandscape]

Originally Posted by colorflow

You can unscrew the front element by holding the focusing ring with one hand and the front part of the lens with the other. The front element unscrews and the shims are flat brass rings that goes over the threaded part and between the front and back lens pieces.

Here is the link for DAG DAG Camera Parts In any case, Don Goldberg there can fix the focusing problem.

Alan

Alan, just checked my Tele-Elmar, unscrewing the two pieces as you suggested. No brass rings anywhere. I will contact Don at DAG per your suggestion. Thanks for the help.

[grdglass]

The first 135/4 TE I bought had good focus from close-up to mid-distance. Anything further towards infinity was very much out of focus. Fortunately, I was able to return the lens.

I was able to try two lenses from friends and they were in focus throughout the range. I then bought a lens that was completely in focus also.

In my opinion you might have a bad lens. If it were me and I could return the lens, I would do so, and look for another. Playing around with it might not be the way to go.

Helene

[gesper]

I bought one on eBay that seems to be fine throughout the range.

[Paul Hart]

I bought a little used example that wouldn't focus. There is a fairly large, sprung slider inside the lens at the rear, which abuts the rangefinder mechanism when it's mounted on the body. This had seized up through lack of use. If the rangefinder patch simply isn't moving, this may be the issue.

It's worth checking yours in case it's the same problem. Working it to and fro with a tiny amount of suitable lubricant did the trick.

[jaapv]

Originally Posted by photolandscape

Alan, just checked my Tele-Elmar, unscrewing the two pieces as you suggested. No brass rings anywhere. I will contact Don at DAG per your suggestion. Thanks for the help.

Basically there should not be rings, but the number scratched into the barrel should be the same as the serial number. Leica matched lensheads to barrels. If they get mixed up, shimming may be necessary.

[photolandscape]

Originally Posted by jaapv

Basically there should not be rings, but the number scratched into the barrel should be the same as the serial number. Leica matched lensheads to barrels. If they get mixed up, shimming may be necessary.

I checked this per your suggestion and the numbers match up.

[redfalo]

Originally Posted by adan

Well, there is a reason Leica left out the 135 lines on the M8, and specifically says the use of the 135 is "not recommended". An effective 180mm lens is well past the upper limit of what the Leica rangefinder base can handle reliably, based on the math and geometry.

This is the argument Leica puts forward. However, I don´t find it overly convincing. The

viewfinder enlargement of the M8 ist 0.68x. Analog Ms with 0.72- viewfinders do have a 135mm frame line. I don´t see why a 5% reduction of the viewfinder enlargement should reduce the reliability of the rangefinder significantly.

It is true that the 135mm has only a display window of a 180mm on the M8. But this is due to the fact that the chip is smaller than a 35mm negative. If I do not completly misunderstand the matter the crop factor only means that the edges of the picture are cut of. It´s like you use only the center part (18x27 mm) of a 24 x 36 negative (which is either sharp or not).

Anyhow Leica could add a 135 mm frame and strongly recommend to use the 1.25x magnifier. Another option would have been to build the M8 with a 0.72x.viewfinder...
Yours
Olaf