M8 Raw mode comparison with the M Monochrom and M9

[Lenshacker]

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I've had my M8 for over 5 years now, and it is better than ever- thanks to Arvid's M8RAW2DNG. The lack of uncompressed DNG had been my biggest disappointment with the camera, as DNG-8 loses too much data to allow use of High-ISO.I bought the M9 four years ago, and uncompressed DNG makes ISO2500 very usable. The M Monochrom- ISO10,000 is perfectly usable.

 

This thread is to compare RAW images processed with M8RAW2DNG with uncompressed DNG files from the Monochrom and M9.

 

First up is the Monochrom. I've put matching 1950 J-3 5cm F1.5 lenses, the optics made in Germany. The lens on the M8 was made in 1943, and lens on the Monochrom made in 1945. I modified the latter to focus to 0.75m, which offsets the crop factor of the M8.

 

M8_Monochrom_Matchup

 

I'm going to take the pair of cameras on some weekend outings, will be posting results to this thread. The M8 is always left at ISO160, and processed as per my write-up (avaliable as a PDF, just PM me) using LR4.4 and Photoshop CS2 (Free version).

 

My Father left me this painting that he was given, painted by a U-Boat sailor during the War. I just wanted to get a quick example up, and this was painted about when the lenses were made.

 

The M Monochrom, J-3 at F4, 1/125th sec. ISO5000.

 

Monochrom_UBoat_F4_125th

 

And this is with the M8, same 1/125th sec and F4 exposure as metered by the Monochrom.

 

M8_Uboat_ISO5000_F4_125th

 

 

Looking at the 71dB linear dynamic range of the CCD, and the figures for noise, it makes sense that the data can be pulled out of the shadows. You just need an uncompressed image to do that, which the M8 now has. Remember that the M8 loses 1ev to the color Bayer array compared with the Monochrom. I will use the same shutter-speed/F-Stop for all comparisons shown. These shots are taken with a single 75w incandescent bulb, about 6ft from the painting. This is also a "worst-case" for the M8, as it's Quantum-Efficiency is ~21% for Red. It is much higher in green and blue, 40% and 32% respectively. In other words- anything but Tungsten, it will do better.

Edited February 8, 2015 by Lenshacker

[bla]

Nice work! Am really looking forward to seeing more comparisons! Would you mind doing a b/w conversion of the M8 image along the colour one? That would be interesting for me as well.

First impression is that the M8 is not too shabby, isn't it?

- Arvid

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[T44ISKN]

I'm really interested in the results of your investigations.

 

I'm not sure that photos of a painting are a good subject though? I'm not sure if I'm looking at the weave/texture of the canvas, or noise?

[Lenshacker]

I'm going to try to get to a Museum this weekend- subjects stay in the same place, lighting is repeatable.

[luigi bertolotti]

I'm really interested in the results of your investigations.

 

I'm not sure that photos of a painting are a good subject though? I'm not sure if I'm looking at the weave/texture of the canvas, or noise?

 

Photo of paintings with subtle colors and details are rather good for comparision of rendering of a CAMERA : the fact that you have a flat and textured surface is indeed of help to appreciate the imaging quality of the sensor, while on the contrary, if you wish to compare two lenses, is a limitation because you lose the "3D" and OOF components of the lens' rendering (unless, of course, you whish to compare two repro lenses... )

 

The real issue is that a serious comparision cannot be made with the jpg files that one sees on a PC Monitor : the comparision can be well discerned by the user, but not by us, who see a very rough image... in my opinion, to appreciate the real difference between a M8 and a M9 (or M240) one must :

- Take two images with the same aspect, to say, preferably with two different but similar lenses... (for instance, I have a Summarit 75 and an Elmarit-M 90 , very good for this kind of comparision)

- Develop the DNG with standard settings for the camera(s)

- Print A3 with the same print settings (same paper/printer, of course)

 

I have made a pair of tests with my M8-M240... just a pair because is annoying to throw out Epson ink and A3 paper just for this... , but you CAN see a significant difference which, on the contrary, is next to nil on 10x15 and even A4 paper... and, on monitor, is negligible or even not apparent (confirming that the M8 was and is an excellent camera in terms of file quality)

[Lenshacker]

I agree that printed media is the "acid" proof for these comparisons. I will select some of the better images for printing.

 

This comparison is mostly to show the M8 has better High ISO performance using M8RAW2DNG. I set the Monochrom to ISO2500 and ISO5000, left the M8 at ISO160 in Raw mode and using the exposure settings from the Monochrom. For a few shots, I also took standard DNG-8 shots with the M8 set to ISO2500. LR4.4 and Photoshop CS2 used.

 

I'm going to start with the M8 used with standard DNG-8 and ISO2500.

 

M8_3_DNG8_ISO2500

 

The M8 using Raw mode:

 

M8_3_F15_ISO2500

 

And the Monochrom,

 

Monochrom3_f15_ISO2500

 

All wide-open at F1.5 and 1/30th second shutter speed.

[Lenshacker]

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M Monochrom set to ISO2500,

 

Monochrom4_F15_ISO2500

 

M8_4_F15_ISO2500

 

same exposure used for the M8 using Raw mode and ISO160, processed using Auto-Levels and Auto-Color in CS2.

[Lenshacker]

M Monochrom set to ISO5000,

 

Monochrom4_F15_ISO5000

 

M8 using the same exposure as metered by the Monochrom.

 

M8_4_F15_ISO5000

 

I used Auto-Color and then "Curves" to pull up the shadows. I also "slightly Clip" the Blacks using curves for a final adjustment. Again- This is the M8 shooting ISO5000 equivalent, 5-stops past the Base ISO of the CCD.

[Lenshacker]

Another with the Monochrom at ISO5000, better lighting, The J-3 is at F4.

 

Monochrom5_F4_ISO5000

 

Same exposure, I did not pull the curves up quite as much in CS2.

 

M8_5_F4_ISO5000

 

I've found the "Auto-Levels/Auto-Color" two-Clicks works well up to ISO2500 equivalent. At ISO5000- more "tinkering". I stepped back with the M8 when taking this shot.

[Lenshacker]

Another at ISO5000. I modified the J-3 on this lens to focus closer, this is at ~0.75m.

 

Monochrom2_F15_ISO5000

 

Photoshop Auto-Color and then Curves on this one, J-3 at standard Minimum focus of 0.9m:

 

M8_2_F15_ISO5000

 

These lenses have a Russian serial number on the name ring a few hundred apart, but the Inner Serial Numbers show the Optical assemblies were made 2 years apart. Both lenses have perfect glass, and both required BIG adjustments to work. Fortunate for me, the lenses with the worst focus have the cleanest optics, no one ever used them.

[Lenshacker]

Another at ISO5000, lens at F4.

 

Monochrom1_F4_ISO5000

 

M8 using the same exposure. Running out of "Color" for the face of the Marine because of the shadow cast by the Helmet.

 

M8_1_F4_ISO5000

 

Channel Mixer for this one.

 

M8m_1_F4_ISO5000

 

So- most of these at ISO5000 to push the CCD of the M8. One DNG-8 comparison shot at ISO2500.

 

I'm going to state that High ISO shots with M8RAW2DNG are better than DNG-8, and do not require much additional post-processing up to ISO2500. The Button dance takes a little getting used to. I still use DOS on a daily basis, so running M8RAW2DNG on a Win7 machine is refreshing. It's not hard, just not "point and click".

 

Next week I'll do the same with the M9 and M8, will put the close-focus J-3 on the M9. I'm going to be very interested in what results.

[Lenshacker]

Another Edit of the ISO5000 equivalent shot, Auto-Color then curves.

 

M8_2B_f15_ISO5000

 

curve_adjust

 

This is the free version of CS2, Photoshop has had "Curves" in it at least since 3.0. I'm not sure if Elements has it. LR does not.

[jensthoes]

Hello,

 

I state, that FOR ME the M8(.2) is a near perfect camera.

 

I don't use it (like I use my film cameras) only until ISO 320 (=ISO 400 cause my Standard is -1/3 f-stops).

 

If I see THESE pictures, I'm very much confirmed in my opinion, that's perfect to use the M8 within ist limits to avoid pictures the world doesn't need - sorry.

 

For me, photography is celebrating the LIGHT and not the darkest corners;-)

 

M8RAW2DNG is a very fine tool. For me, the best within is the fact, that the lights are not so easily blown out. The price are duller grey tones.

 

Best,

 

Jens

[Lenshacker]

Some of the most memorable photographs ever taken were in low and existing light. People pushed Tri-X to 6400, and came up with some clever ways of boosting film sensitivity. One company modified Nikon F's with small lamps to "Pre-Flash" the film to increase sensitivity.Basically, the pre-flash gets the chemical process past a threshold boundary for reacting with light that you are trying to collect. Kind of like Bias on an APD (Avalanche Photo Diode). Photographers would do the same with Sheet film- pre-sensitizing it.

 

This process is much easier, and works at all settings. At Base ISO it preserves details in the shadows and increases resolution. DNG-8 loses a lot of spatial detail by throwing many intensity levels of light into the same bin. This also adds more refined levels to work with for Monochrome conversions. I should post some examples at Base ISO as well.

Edited February 14, 2015 by Lenshacker

[T44ISKN]

Another Edit of the ISO5000 equivalent shot, Auto-Color then curves.

 

This is the free version of CS2, Photoshop has had "Curves" in it at least since 3.0. I'm not sure if Elements has it. LR does not.

 

What a fantastic study you've shared with us! I'm still a little unclear on the usage of Curves, as Elements 11 does not have this. However, I'll endeavour to install the free CS2 a see how I get on with my own experiements.

 

What does "slightly clip the blacks" mean? Is this the same thing as dragging the Blacks slider to the left in Camera Raw?

 

Thanks again for all the hard work in sharing your methods!

[Lenshacker]

By "Slightly Clip the Blacks": I move the left most point of where the Curve meets the X-Axis. The default is (0,0), I move it slightly to the right, lets call it (5,0). This will turn everything to the left of the X intercept to black. Think of it as sweeping noise under the carpet...

 

Black_clip

 

(Just did this to illustrate the Post, basically everything 5 and under gets translated to an intensity of 0.

Edited February 14, 2015 by Lenshacker

[Lenshacker]

One other observation: The J-3 and all Sonnars pick up contrast as you close down to F4. This means my F1.5 shots "fill in the shadows" but the F4 shots "leave them in the dark". This might be why mt shot at F4 lost more color at ISO5000.

 

One of those cases where Uncoated and Lower Contrast lenses work better. They basically cast light, either from Veiling Flare or Out-of-Focus light into the darkest portions of the image. This gets the pixel above the noise threshold. Kind of like those Lamps on the modified Nikon F.

 

I checked LR4.4's Noise-Reduction settings, they are the "Factory Default" : Luminosity 0; Color 25 Detail 50. I will pick a shot and disable the NR setting for a comparison.

Edited February 14, 2015 by Lenshacker

[T44ISKN]

By "Slightly Clip the Blacks": I move the left most point of where the Curve meets the X-Axis. The default is (0,0), I move it slightly to the right, lets call it (5,0). This will turn everything to the left of the X intercept to black. Think of it as sweeping noise under the carpet...

 

Thanks - do you think this does the same as the Blacks slider in ACR?

[Lenshacker]

Photoshop also has a slider in "Levels". It should work close-enough to what I am doing in curves. I like curves better than just using levels, as it allows you to apply a more "film-Like" response curves to the highlights. As you shoot at base ISO, you retain very bright portions of the scene. Instead of letting them "saturate out" as you boost the left portion of the histogram by 4 or 5 stops, applying a curve allows them to be retained.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[jaapv]

Levels is nothing more than simplified curves with just three control points.