To M8 or not!

[cruvon]

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Hi, I am a new member here and new to any advanced photography, most of my picture taking has been using point and shoot compacts this far. I was looking at upgrading to a compact DSLR (Sony Rx1R) mostly for family photography but somehow my journey in seeking one led me to Leica rangefinders and to this forum which is very informative.

 

Not wanting to go overboard, I plan starting off with an M8 with hopefully a Leica lens I can always use or offload depending on how my journey goes. My main concern is if the M8 is more complex to use than say a M240 with an EVF mated to it, the danger is I may be unfairly tempted to quit so I would like to know your opinion on this and if any existing M8 users or those who upgraded to M240's from M8's have felt this way. The other issue is that most online threads seem to point to lcd/shutter issues on the M8 which is another concern and not sure how easy or cheap it is to fix by sending to Leica Germany, don't want to walk into a minefield.

 

And lastly, what is the average time newcomers usually take to get a handle on RF usage so as to get nice looking pictures, how much practice/learning curve am I looking at based on your knowledgeable experience?

 

 

Any advice welcome.

 

Following this one currently on the Bay and local to me

 

Leica M8 10 3 MP Digital Camera Black Body Only 799429107116 | eBay

 

Thanks

Edited September 5, 2014 by cruvon

[Loren]

Hi, I am a new member here and new to any advanced photography, most of my picture taking has been using point and shoot compacts this far. I was looking at upgrading to a compact DSLR (Sony Rx1R) but somehow my journey in seeking one led me to Leica rangefinders and to this forum which is very informative.

 

Not wanting to go overboard, I plan starting off with an M8 with hopefully a Leica lens I can always use or offload depending on how my journey goes. My main concern is if the M8 is more complex to use than say a M240 with an EVF mated to it, the danger is I may be unfairly tempted to quit so I would like to know your opinion on this and if any existing M8 users or those who upgraded to M240's from M8's have felt this way. The other issue is that most online threads seem to point to lcd/shutter issues on the M8 which is another concern and not sure how easy or cheap it is to fix by sending to Leica Germany, don't want to walk into a minefield.

 

And lastly, what is the average time newcomers usually take to get a handle on RF usage so as to get nice looking pictures, how much practice/learning curve am I looking at based on your knowledgeable experience?

 

 

Any advice welcome.

 

Following this one currently on the Bay and local to me

 

Leica M8 10 3 MP Digital Camera Black Body Only 799429107116 | eBay

 

Thanks

 

Personally, I think the only reason to get an M8 is for a second camera. The M8, as with the other variants is a bit limited in its abilities to cover the full spectrum of photography.

 

In other words, if you are thinking that an M8 will fill all your needs you may be disappointed. The M8 (and other Ms) are niche cameras that are both challenging and fun to shoot, but can not replace my DSLRs all the time.

 

So, you need to understand the limitations.

 

As for getting an M240 over the M8, I think the advantages are not worth the price, unless you have money to burn. The M8 is quite capable when mastered and its shortcomings not that important in the end. Even the M240 will not replace the abilities of a DSLR for general photography.

 

Mastering the technique to use an M just depends on the person. My girlfriend was getting excellent results after a few dozen shots. Some people never warm up to it and sell it in disgust. Rent or borrow one if you can.

 

The Sony RX1 is an excellent camera. The IQ is going to be better than the M8, but it is not a rangefinder and the fixed lens limits your reach. However, the fixed lens means that the lens and sensor are optimized to get the best IQ and no dust bunnies get on the sensor.

 

Yes, the M8 has a know LCD fault. Shutters can be replaced, but LCDs can not and you are rolling the dice - such is life.

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[Jeff S]

….My main concern is if the M8 is more complex to use than say a M240 with an EVF mated to it...

 

More complex? As rangefinder use goes, they're basically the same, and the only reason to get either is because you enjoy using the RF.

 

Good advice to try first if you can…borrow or rent. Otherwise, buy from a reputable dealer with some form of warranty….there are many to trust, even if not local.

 

Lots of threads here on the M8 screen issues (search box). If you get the infamous 'stain' (which doesn't prohibit pics), Leica can no longer fix and offers an upgrade to another model. I still keep my M8.2 for back-up and carry personal insurance to cover all my gear, including circumstances not covered by the warranty.

 

Experience varies greatly; some like RF, some don't. The issue is less about learning (not difficult) and more about choosing the appropriate and comfortable tool for your photographic goals.

 

Jeff

[lct]

the only reason to get either is because you enjoy using the RF. Good advice to try first if you can…borrow or rent

+1. Rangefinders are very special cameras which allow you to "see" outside the lens when composing. This is an advantage for some photogs but others will miss the WYSIWYG viewing offered by mirrorless cameras. Also there are no fast wide lenses for the M8 aside from 21/1.4 and 24/1.4 lenses which are bulky, very expensive and not that wide on crop cameras. Finally the M8 is a noisy camera compared to mirrorless cams again: noisy motor and noisy pics above 640 iso. Makes very nice images though but IR-cut filters and some leaning curve are both required for that.

[-Lss-]

most of my picture taking has been using point and shoot compacts this far. I was looking at upgrading to a compact DSLR (Sony Rx1R)

I'm not sure whether RX1R is the camera you are currently using or possibly looking to buy. It is a point-and-shoot compact. In any case, you can put an appropriate optical viewfinder (OVF) on top of the RX1R or any camera, and get a preview of what using a rangefinder camera is like in terms of composition and framing. The Leica M8 is focused through the viewfinder, though. You cannot simulate that exact experience without trying a rangefinder camera. I myself came to rangefinders from (D)SLR cameras a few years ago by first using a wide-angle point-and-shoot camera with an accessory OVF alongside the bigger rigs.

 

The two cameras I actually use most at the moment are the Leica M8 and the Sony RX1R. The M8 is the better camera for me. I like using it more and make better photographs with it. On the other hand, the RX1R provides significantly better image quality in many cases, and I need the leaf shutter for those of my projects that require absolutely silent operation (often in continuous shooting mode).

 

The Leica M (Typ 240) gives the possibility of using the LCD screen or an EVF to focus and frame. This actually makes it a more complex camera than the Leica M8 which lacks such features. The M8 is very very simple in operation. The new M may however be easier to approach for someone who has not used a rangefinder before.

[luigi bertolotti]

Welcome to the forum !!! Most of people here are longtime users of Leica Ms of the various kinds (many from film times), so well accustomed to its uniquenesses and limitations (one for all : forget strong telephoto... Leicaphiles, me included, do it using strange devices that can look ridicolous and insane to normal photogs... )

 

So... find the way to TRY it...even for 1 day only... with a 35mm or 50mm lens and using jpg only, just to understand what it means to work with RF : use wide apertures, concentrate on what means to compose and focus, making the kind of pictures you usually do, and do also some pic in interiors, not exceeding 400 ASA if you are using a M8: it's a field of usage in which, imho, Leicas do shine.

 

About M8 vs. M : it's obvious that for a first time Leica user M is a high risk in money terms : it costs a lot, and if one dislikes the M experience, it would result in a significant net loss of money : buiyng a M8 has its risks, as said above (in short, the M8 is not completely repairable), but I think that lot of M8s can do still a fine job with no issues for a decently long time (my one is dated 2006, and works perfectly after thousands of takings, and treated not like a baby or a jewel) : provided that you like to use it, it is capable of excellent pictures; IF , after a try, you'll decide that Leica M photography is for you, there will be lot of details to learn (first of all, the UVIR filters usage, then lenses' choice..), and a learning curve that will be no longer than any other, when one changes his basic photo platform : I started using RF cameras in 1975 (Russian Zorky) , tried sometimes the switch to SLRs, and ended up that was better to learn to take better pictures than learning to use a different platform.

Edited September 6, 2014 by luigi bertolotti

[cruvon]

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Thanks Loren,Jeff, lct,lss, luigi for your kind advice on exploring the Leica option.

 

I think I should take your advice and first go get a hands on feel of the system, will possibly drop by a Leica dealer and check the cameras out, esp for their rangefinder operation. I don't know any shop here in Sydney who would rent out a Leica unfortunately. I think I will also hang around here and learn from you guys while I decide on the M-system to go with.

 

I initially thought that a Leica could stand in as a general purpose compact DSLR upgrade I was looking at but apparently not as it does only certain things best and can't be a primary all situation camera . So I will have to anyway get possibly a RX1R or a RX2 if is due out soon to snap those quick family moments with my 4 year old, while I continue to gather all the knowledge I can on the M-system.

Though I have never used a Leica before, I think I am very impressed by it's rich history of making fine instruments and using the best quality glass that can be passed down across the generations that I find appealing.

 

Appreciate all your help on this!

 

(Lss, the RX1R is what was looking at getting, great you have the RX1R)

[MerijnvZ]

. I don't know any shop here in Sydney who would rent out a Leica unfortunately. I think I will also hang around here and learn from you guys while I decide on the M-system to go with.

 

Allthough I'm from the other side of the globe I have Excellent experiences with Foto Riesel up in 360 Kent Street. Best service ever for a tourist like me and ending up buying a 90mm 'cron-R. I would definately visit them as they are nice blokes to talk to and do know their stuff!

[wilfredo]

I shot with the M8 for many years. Never gave up on the DSLR but most of my favorite photos have been with the M8. Recently I switched to the Monochrom since I mostly do B&W photography, and as far as B&W files go, only the Monochrom beats the M8, IMHO. Depending on how you plan to use it, it may fulfill your needs. DSLR's are great when you don't have the luxury of manually focusing, and you need a zoom, but think of the bulk... Everything has a plus and a minus.

[jonnyboy]

Welcome to the forum!

 

I never had a Leica in my hands before but few months ago I bought one, a lovely M8.

Since that day my DSLR is sitting in the desk... it takes a bit to get used to but you will not regret!

[cruvon]

Allthough I'm from the other side of the globe I have Excellent experiences with Foto Riesel up in 360 Kent Street. Best service ever for a tourist like me and ending up buying a 90mm 'cron-R. I would definately visit them as they are nice blokes to talk to and do know their stuff!

 

 

 

Thanks Mervin, I have heard about them, need to make a trip there.

[cruvon]

I shot with the M8 for many years. Never gave up on the DSLR but most of my favorite photos have been with the M8. Recently I switched to the Monochrom since I mostly do B&W photography, and as far as B&W files go, only the Monochrom beats the M8, IMHO. Depending on how you plan to use it, it may fulfill your needs. DSLR's are great when you don't have the luxury of manually focusing, and you need a zoom, but think of the bulk... Everything has a plus and a minus.

 

Welcome to the forum!

 

I never had a Leica in my hands before but few months ago I bought one, a lovely M8.

Since that day my DSLR is sitting in the desk... it takes a bit to get used to but you will not regret!

 

 

 

Thanks for the tips wilfredo, jonnyboy.

[cruvon]

A query, which is a good suggested lens for the M8? Something I can use if I upgrade the M body later? I know the M8 has a crop factor so a 28mm is ideal but will take a 35mm or 50mm and what are the tradeoffs?

 

Thanks

Edited September 13, 2014 by cruvon

[wda]

cruvon, welcome to the forum! A 35mm will give you effectively a standard focal length on an M8 taking into account the crop factor. If you prefer a slightly wider angle view, opt for a 24mm Elmar or 28mm Elmarit. I have the latter, which is excellent, light in weight, compact and an easy lens for touring. Any one of these lenses would be equally useful if you upgrade to a full-frame Leica later.

 

I believe we have members from Sydney who could advise or even help you. Why not post a simple thread in the sub-forum dedicated to welcoming newcomers to Leica? (Can't remember the exact title without losing what I have written ) Explain your desire and see if you receive some direct help, possibly even of handling kit.

[farnz]

Personally, I think the only reason to get an M8 is for a second camera. ....

I don't think it's the only reason; the M8 produces excellent b&w shots straight out of the camera, with excellent tonal separation and depth of tone that many believe are better than the M9 or M (I've been fortunate to have owned all three). It also offers the opportunity to shoot in infrared, which is why I bought back into the M8.

 

Pete.

[lct]

Ditto and it is still superb in colour with IR-cut filters if you don't need to shoot above 640 iso a lot.

[DigitalHeMan]

A query, which is a good suggested lens for the M8? Something I can use if I upgrade the M body later? I know the M8 has a crop factor so a 28mm is ideal but will take a 35mm or 50mm and what are the tradeoffs?

 

Thanks

 

 

Depending on how much money you want to invest, you could look at an Elmarit 28mm or a Summarit 35mm. Alternatively a third party lens of a similar focal length from Zeiss. Both focal lengths off ER a reasonable viewpoint to get started with a one lens setup.

[IWC Doppel]

The M8 will be a great fist step on your Leica journey, it is essentially the same as an M240 without a few bells and whistles, none that I personally would covet.

 

I started my digital Leica journey with an M8 and now have an M9-P and couldn't be happier, my other camera have been sold or gather dust. The rangefinder way of working is so rewarding in comparison, I am now all manual and when I pick up another digital camera it confuses the hell out of me. Why it should be so seemingly complex I don't know, there are three settings only IMO , how sensitive the film is (ISO), how big the hole is (aperture) and how much light you let in (shutter speed), that's it for the camera to worry about. The light meter is built in and can be used in auto mode to drive speed or other, but you'll ultimately get better results IMO choosing what you meter with camera in hand. Your photography skills will improve as you understand what you might not have before and your free and uninhibited with full control.

 

You'll get to understand just how good the M8 is and how other cameras internally torture noise without you seeing and yes it's no modern CMOS for high ISO and never will be, but in the same way it will look like no CMOS image IMO and B&W conversions are stellar. I'd get a good 24, 28 or 35 second hand give it 3 months before you think you don't get on with it and if you genuinely don't sell it all for what you paid.

 

Now it's just picking a good one at the right price hopefully you'll never look back, I'm just picking a lens for the day and popping mine in my every day bag

[jip]

The M8 and M9 are the same except the full frame sensor and the APS-H sensor.

 

 

The M240 is different because it has lots of automated stuff, and live view etc... I've turned all the m240 things off and use it like a M8/9 unless I use Leica R lenses because then I have to focus using live view.

 

But the M8 is a great camera and in that sense more simple to use than the M240. And actually not the other way around.

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[arno_nyhm]

using a rangefinder can be pain or release. this depends only on you and on the way you would like to use your camara. if you never used a rangefinder before, you may be well of not to buy an M8 in the first step but trying out rangefinderphotography by using an cheaper analogue rangefindercam like the canonet 28 wich you could get for ten bucks on the electric bay. throw in an cheap film and have it processed and scanned cheap at a local service like kenrockwell always suggests: if you don't find any real problems realilzing your pictures with this cam, you are right in rangefinderphotography. if you realize Problems with the minimum distance to your subject, with focussing by the rangefinder or have any other quirks with the rangefinder: stay away from Leica M8 or M9 and don't bother to look at Leica again until you can afford an M(240). maybe you will get happy with a Fuji X100 in that case.

 

A query, which is a good suggested lens for the M8?

 

if you want a leica lens -and that is what using a leica might be about- a used 35/2 summicron would be a good normal focal length to start with. an elmarit 28/2,8 is said to be a good performer as a light wideangel wit the M8, but it might be a little dark, as f=2.8 is a little small with the ISO-capacities of the M8 wich tend to end at ISO 640 and are not really useable above.

 

if you may consider to use a third-party-lens, you should take a look at the voigtländer Ultron 35/1,7. this little lens was made by cosina but has astonihing sharpness and contrast. i just returned from my first Holidays with my M8 and have to realize, that i took about 90% of my pictures with this lens. and the best about it is the price: you get it for less than half of what the used 35/3 summicron would cost.