Could there come a M9 soon ?

[Olof]

here you can find a (German) interview, Mr.Kaufmann gave in Austria.

http://www.echoonline.at/echo/salzbu..._objectID=3330

- No new analog cams in future (M or R)
- Production stop for the R9
- The question after a M9 he answered with "What would a Leica developer do, if he could get a fullframe sensor"

Does Kodak have a fullframe sensor, Leica could use for the M9 ?

[guy_mancuso]

They certainly can make one. they make sensors for Phase One digital backs , the question is cost more than anything. You need huge amounts of product to get the costs of these low yeild sensors to get the cost within reason, so your M9 today may cost as much as 10 k , now in the future that can certainly change with technology also. So we will have to see where they are going but I know for a fact leica is NOT sitting on there thumbs and there are many rumors floating around. But FF on a M9 is a real possiblity, no question. Many things need to happen first though

[sdai]

It's interesting to note that Dr. Kaufmann is a M fan while the CEO he hired is a R enthusiast ... nevertheless, Dr. Kaufmann clealy indicates that the R glass are the world's best optics

[hankg]

While he gives no time frame he seems to hint that a 24x36 sensor is a goal in the development of the next M digital. That's very interesting, and would explain the reluctance to introduce a cropped format lens.

[mgcd]

Originally Posted by sdai

Dr. Kaufmann clealy indicates that the R glass are the world's best optics

I never doubted that for a minute and was chuckling everytime your counterpart was taking you to task on this subject...

[photoarne]

While Dr. Kaufmann stresses the hypothetical situation, reading between the lines in this interview, my guess would be that Leica is now seeing a way of using a FF sensor in the M-camera. Why else would *he* bring it up? Good as the M8 is, the moment a properly working FF M becomes a reality, I'd certainly be interested

[Iron Flatline]

...from within a longer comment:

Das Zentrum wird die M bleiben, davon werden allerdings nur 12.000 Stück im Jahr produziert.

- The center will remain the M, but there will only be 12,000 units per year. (He doesn't differentiate between M7 and M8.)

Will there be an M9?

Da greifen Sie einer Mitteilung vor, die wir noch gar nicht gemacht haben. Wenn man weiterzählt, wäre das natürlich die logische Folge. Als offizielles Statement kann ich dazu nichts sagen. Stellen Sie es sich aber so vor: Wenn Sie Leica-Entwickler wären und Sie fänden einen Weg – ich verwende Konjunktiv – einen Vollformatsensor unterzubringen, dass der Cropfaktor wegfällt, dann würden Sie es doch tun, oder?

- You're asking for an announcement that we haven't made yet. If you continue counting, it would be the logical next step. As official statement I can't say anything. But imagine this: if you were a Leica developer and you found a way - I'm using the Speculative - to fit a Full-Format sensor, and the crop-factor drops off, then you'd do it, wouldn't you?

So what about the R-line?

Die R9 ist eigentlich zur Zeit eingestellt. Aus folgendem Grund: der Elektronikboard war nicht mehr EU-kompatibel. Wir hätten das gesamte Board der R9 umkonstruieren müssen und das bei einer analogen Kamera, die hybrid-digital arbeitet.

The R-line is curently effectively shuttered. For the following reason: the motherboard does not comply with EU-regulations. We would have had to reconstruct the entire R9 motherboard for an analog camera, that functions hybrid-digitally.

So will there be something new soon?

Die logische Folge nach der R9 wäre eine R10. Natürlich haben wir ein klares Bekenntnis auch zu Spiegelreflex-Kameras. Ich persönlich bin zwar der Meinung, dass man mit der M besser fotografiert, aber der Markt hat anders entschieden. Außerdem gehören die R-Objektive de facto zu den Besten der Welt.

The logical next step would be the R9 followed by the R10. Of course we have a clear commitment to SLR-Cameras. I'm personally of the opinion that one photographs better with an M, but the market has decided otherwise. Apart from that the R-lenses are de facto some of the best in the world.

[hankg]

Yes, it would be really unusual for an executive to publicly speculate about a key feature to it's customers like full frame for the M if they did not believe they would be able to deliver. When is another story, but even if it's 3 years away he just raised the bar for the next M.

[zlatkob]

I suppose it might not be a replacement for the M8, but rather one that is sold concurrently with the M8. The M8 camera would be at its current price point, and the full-frame camera would be at a higher price point, maybe 50% higher. That would be something like Canon's current offerings for its 1 series.

[sdai]

Originally Posted by mgcd

I never doubted that for a minute and was chuckling everytime your counterpart was taking you to task on this subject...

What a relief and coincidence, Conrad ... I'm glad it's directly from the owner of Leica so if it were false it was Dr. Kaufmann who made it up.

In addition, the R lenses are in fact the best of the world.

[guy_mancuso]

Originally Posted by hankg

Yes, it would be really unusual for an executive to publicly speculate about a key feature to it's customers like full frame for the M if they did not believe they would be able to deliver. When is another story, but even if it's 3 years away he just raised the bar for the next M.

I'm a little surprised and that is all i will say

[hankg]

Originally Posted by zlatkob

I suppose it might not be a replacement for the M8, but rather one that is sold concurrently with the M8. The M8 camera would be at its current price point, and the full-frame camera would be at a higher price point, maybe 50% higher. That would be something like Canon's current offerings for its 1 series.

I would hope that if and when it happens that the full frame M9 will replace the M8 at the same price point and that they introduce a cheaper M8-2 1.33 cropped sensor camera that they can sell for a lower price.

[finkaudio]

Hi,

I'm expecting a digital CL type of camera to go together with the new cheaper lenses.

If they really sell only 12.000 M per year, I cannot see enough customers for an M9 now. I would expect Leica to look for new market segments. Maybe with a kind of Perfect_Focus_ LED to help new RF users (or older ones like me )

Best regards

Karl-Heinz

[carstenw]

Originally Posted by sdai

What a relief and coincidence, Conrad ... I'm glad it's directly from the owner of Leica so if it were false it was Dr. Kaufmann who made it up.

In addition, the R lenses are in fact the best of the world.

Two things: you need to work on your reading comprehension: R lenses are *among* the best in the world. M lenses also. Secondly, no one around here needs Dr. Kaufmann to tell them which lenses are best, at least not anyone with knowledge. We already know.

[stunsworth]

Originally Posted by carstenw

Two things: you need to work on your reading comprehension: R lenses are *among* the best in the world. M lenses also.

I noticed that as well <grin>.

[Alberti]

Originally Posted by hankg

I would hope that if and when it happens that the full frame M9 will replace the M8 at the same price point and that they introduce a cheaper M8-2 1.33 cropped sensor camera that they can sell for a lower price.

Hank, That will never be done, absolutely no marketing manager would allow potential buyers to go short on Leica (that is: postpone the decision to buy untill the announced lower pricetag hits the market).
As a FF sensor costs for example raw from Kodak € 600,- against € 250,- for the small one plus new hardware is needed, software, algo's, new B/W capabilities, larger shadow depth, no way you will get a camera for the price of the M8, I expect, for the moment.
But apart from all that, generally prices drop for electronics. Remember the drop of SD card prices. 4Gb once was 4 grant. The fight is to stuff better technology where the hourly rate remains the same, to keep the same price quadrant. in fact, the leica is stable in it's quadrant since ages. That's my thinking.

[carstenw]

Alberti, although the FF sensor is more expensive, Leica's manufacturing costs will certainly drop in the near future. Steven K. Lee has the brains to see this, and the new Summarits do indeed share components, a first in Leica history. Additionally, the recent price increase still has me speculating: is it possible it was done so that the M9 can be released with no price increase?

[andybarton]

I thought one of the reasons why there could never be a FF M digital, is down to the micro lenses, and the angle of incidence of the light at the edge of the frame.

Suddenly, this no longer seems to be a problem.

[hankg]

Originally Posted by Alberti

Hank, That will never be done, absolutely no marketing manager would allow potential buyers to go short on Leica (that is: postpone the decision to buy untill the announced lower pricetag hits the market).

Well if a full frame M9 16MP came out next year it might cost $8000. But we are probably talking about 3 years from now at least. Costs will come down and I'm sure they will be designing ways to lower manufacturing costs as well into the next camera. What you expect with electronics is more performance for lower price with each new generation. The 1Ds has been coming down in price with each generation, when you factor in inflation even holding the line on the price would be like a price reduction.

[carstenw]

Originally Posted by Olof

- No new analog cams in future (M or R)

That is not quite right. He says:

"Wir werden solange analog produzieren, solange das die Leute haben wollen. Ich glaube, es wird diese Nische geben. Momentan hat es keinen Sinn dazu einen Nachfolger zu produzieren, diese Geräte sind so ausgereift."

"We will produce analog cameras as long as people want them. I believe this niche will continue to exist. At the moment it makes no sense to produce a successor, the cameras are so mature."

He doesn't exclude the future, and makes no final judgements.

Interestingly he also says:

"Aus Sicht einer Produktionsfirma haben wir ja das Problem, dass wir eigentlich gegen unsere alten Produkte kämpfen."

"From the perspective of a manufacturing company we have the problem that we are competing against our own old products."

This connects with my observation that the new Summarits compete not only with Zeiss, and to a lesser extent with Voigtlaender, but also with second-hand Leica lenses. What would you rather have, a new Summarit, or an older generation Cron or Elmarit, at a similar price? Some will choose the Summarit.