Leica M8 and Pro photo color space

[Samir Jahjah]

The M8 offers only two color space to work with, either sRGB or Adobe. Is this color space "attached" to the RAW file? In their latest video workshop, From Camera To Print, Michael Reichman shows that when possible, one should work with the largest color space, that is Pro Photo.

Now, using aperture and CS3 as external editor, how can I ensure that my workflow will take place under the same profile. For now, when I open a DNG file from Aperture to CS3 (using the Open in External Editor command), the color space is Adobe. I have not found a way to get it in pro photo.

Any help? Views?

Thanks

[Jack_Flesher]

The M8 profile from the menu is only for the jpeg. If you shoot raw, you can can choose any profile you want upon conversion, just like with any other raw file.

Aperture may be limiting your choice. Try opening your M8 raw file in ACR and you'll see several space options, Prophoto RGB being one of them.

Cheers,

[Samir Jahjah]

Originally Posted by Jack_Flesher

The M8 profile from the menu is only for the jpeg. If you shoot raw, you can can choose any profile you want upon conversion, just like with any other raw file.

Aperture may be limiting your choice. Try opening your M8 raw file in ACR and you'll see several space options, Prophoto RGB being one of them.

Cheers,

Thanks. But Aperture does not let me set the color space when exporting to CS3, or at least I don t know how to do it.

[Eoin]

A question for you, why are you exporting to CS3 rather than open in external editor from within aperture?.

If you insist in exporting (I presume tiff) then if you export version then in the export presets you can duplicate the tiff full size then select edit and edit the duplicate and select the colour space you wish to export in. I presume it's wide gamut RGB your after?.

[Jack_Flesher]

Aperture is what's preventing you from using Prophoto. Forget Aperture and try opening an M8 raw directly from CS3 ACR -- you can then select Prophoto as your working space. Also, when working in PP, it is advisable to ALWAYS use 16-bit per channel depth. It is always best to convert directly to the space you wish to work in.

Alternatively, you could "convert to profile" after you are in CS3, but this does not add any image color data, only converts Adobe RGB to disply properly in the larger Pro space.

Cheers,

[Samir Jahjah]

Originally Posted by Jack_Flesher

Aperture is what's preventing you from using Prophoto. Forget Aperture and try opening an M8 raw directly from CS3 ACR -- you can then select Prophoto as your working space. Also, when working in PP, it is advisable to ALWAYS use 16-bit per channel depth. It is always best to convert directly to the space you wish to work in.

Alternatively, you could "convert to profile" after you are in CS3, but this does not add any image color data, only converts Adobe RGB to disply properly in the larger Pro space.

Cheers,

Aperture is just a data management software, so why would aperture prevent me setting the pro space as the default space when using an external editor? Aperture allws me to export tiff or PSD file in Pro space. Then it saves a file outside its library in that space. The problem is that when you use open an image with an external editor (CS3), the only space available is Adobe.

[Samir Jahjah]

Originally Posted by Eoin

A question for you, why are you exporting to CS3 rather than open in external editor from within aperture?.

If you insist in exporting (I presume tiff) then if you export version then in the export presets you can duplicate the tiff full size then select edit and edit the duplicate and select the colour space you wish to export in. I presume it's wide gamut RGB your after?.

Because I like working with aperture, and I like its raw converter. However I often needs to apply some editing in CS3. I have changed the preset to Pro space...but what I want is keep my workflow within aperture, edit the image in cs3, close it and have automatically a new version.

[grober]

IF given the choice, I would select ProPhoto with Adobe RGB a clear second choice.

If your raw decoding s/w permits, avoid sRGB since its small-ish color space forces you to loose color details being recorded by the M8 when shooting raw (DNG).

My usual M8 shooting mode is always RAW.

-g

[Eoin]

Originally Posted by Samir Jahjah

Because I like working with aperture, and I like its raw converter. However I often needs to apply some editing in CS3. I have changed the preset to Pro space...but what I want is keep my workflow within aperture, edit the image in cs3, close it and have automatically a new version.

Well I'm not sure by your answer if that's what your doing or what you'd like to do.
I'll assume you wish to do this but don't know how, forgive me if I've miss understood.

Aperture allows for the use of external editors such as CS2/3, the beauty of this is any image that aperture has control over either in the library or referenced masters can be sent directly from aperture to the external editor for adjustments. Once those adjustments are made in the external editor and changes saved and the editor closed a new version of the file is present in aperture with all the changes you made in the external editor, including any colour space changes.

How to set this up is open aperture, in the top menu bar select aperture, preferences. In the preferences pane you'll see output and below that you'll see external image editor and a choose button. Click the choose and navigate to your applications and CS2 or CS3 what ever you're using. Close the preferences.

Select an image you'd like to edit externally and in the top menu select image, open in external editor. Then when the image opens up in CS2 you can edit to your hearts content and when finished just save and close. You can assign your pro photo profile in CS2 or you can assign the profile in aperture when you finally decide to output the file as jpeg or in print. Aperture it's self works natively in Adobe RGB as far as I know.

Hope this helps, and yes I happen to like aperture above all others. Period.

[Jack_Flesher]

Originally Posted by Samir Jahjah

Aperture is just a data management software,

Uh no, it's also a raw converter -- and if you're using it as your raw converter, that's where I think your problem is.

But then perhaps I don't understand exactly what it is you are trying to do...

[Samir Jahjah]

Originally Posted by Eoin

Well I'm not sure by your answer if that's what your doing or what you'd like to do.
I'll assume you wish to do this but don't know how, forgive me if I've miss understood.

Aperture allows for the use of external editors such as CS2/3, the beauty of this is any image that aperture has control over either in the library or referenced masters can be sent directly from aperture to the external editor for adjustments. Once those adjustments are made in the external editor and changes saved and the editor closed a new version of the file is present in aperture with all the changes you made in the external editor, including any colour space changes.

How to set this up is open aperture, in the top menu bar select aperture, preferences. In the preferences pane you'll see output and below that you'll see external image editor and a choose button. Click the choose and navigate to your applications and CS2 or CS3 what ever you're using. Close the preferences.

Select an image you'd like to edit externally and in the top menu select image, open in external editor. Then when the image opens up in CS2 you can edit to your hearts content and when finished just save and close. You can assign your pro photo profile in CS2 or you can assign the profile in aperture when you finally decide to output the file as jpeg or in print. Aperture it's self works natively in Adobe RGB as far as I know.

Hope this helps, and yes I happen to like aperture above all others. Period.

Thanks! The problem if that if I assign the pro photo profile in CS2/3, from Adobe, then I do not benefit from the larger gamut since Aperture would have sent that image to CS3 in Adobe. However, Aperture allows you to export a RAW file to a TIFF or PSD in Pro photo (in your presets). However this does not affect the way Aperture send your images to an externak editor. If I understand your response, there is no way to open an image to CS2/3 in pro photo? If you are right, then this should be fixed in the next version of Aperture.

[Samir Jahjah]

Originally Posted by Jack_Flesher

Uh no, it's also a raw converter -- and that is where I think your problem is.

But then perhaps I don't understand exactly what it is you are trying to do...

My workflow:

1. Import my DNG files into aperture

2. Do basic RAW edits with aperture

3. Open the image in external editor (CS3)...and here is my problem: once the image is opened in photoshop, the color space is Adobe, and not Pro photo. Is it possible to tell Aperture to convert the raw image in the pro photo color space or not?

4. Edit the images in photoshop (applying filters such alien skin, etc...)

5. Save it back into aperture.

[Jack_Flesher]

Originally Posted by Samir Jahjah

My workflow:

1. Import my DNG files into aperture

2. Do basic RAW edits with aperture

3. Open the image in external editor (CS3)...and here is my problem: once the image is opened in photoshop, the color space is Adobe, and not Pro photo. Is it possible to tell Aperture to convert the raw image in the pro photo color space or not?

4. Edit the images in photoshop (applying filters such alien skin, etc...)

5. Save it back into aperture.

Sorry, but what I've been saying all along is I think your problem is in step #2. I believe APERTURE is the program that's not allowing you to tag the image in Prophoto. CS3 will open whatever you send it. The first question is can Aperture perform raw conversion and generate a 16-bit per channel Prophoto RGB tiff output?

Depending on how you have CS3 set up, it can automatically convert everything it opens into your default working space, or can ask you what you want to do for profile mismatches, or can always ignore them. So, the second question is do you have CS3 default space set to Prophoto or Adobe RGB? The problem is if you send it an Adobe RGB from Aperture, any conversion to Prophoto in CS3 is too late to be of full benefit. What you want to do for maximum workflow benefit is convert the raw file to Prophoto initially, and that step has to be done in the raw converter at initial conversion...

However, Adobe RGB is not a terrible option for most imaging needs, but there are some colors that digital cameras can record that fall outside the Adobe RGB space and will be lost when initially converted to Adobe RGB (or smaller) space. This are primarily in the high yellows and some green, but in the case of the M8 I suspect some high reds as well.

Cheers,

[guy_mancuso]

What is bugging me here is Aperture will not let you assign a working space within it's program. Now i am not sure about apertrure but there must be a setting in there when you convert the raws within the program you can set the working space for that file , if it does not allow this than frankly it is a program i would not use. Regardless of CS3 settings it should like LR and C1 allow processing in a working space like ProPhoto or another assigned one that you like. Than if you open the Tif in CS3 you can stay with that working space for editing.

[Jack_Flesher]

Originally Posted by guy_mancuso

What is bugging me here is Aperture will not let you assign a working space within it's program. Now i am not sure about apertrure but there must be a setting in there when you convert the raws within the program you can set the working space for that file , if it does not allow this than frankly it is a program i would not use. Regardless of CS3 settings it should like LR and C1 allow processing in a working space like ProPhoto or another assigned one that you like. Than if you open the Tif in CS3 you can stay with that working space for editing.

Bingo!

[guy_mancuso]

If Aperture does not allow to set the working space than i would be drop kicking it off my machine because this is not what you want to be doing at all. You want to like Jack has said which BTW is a guru on this stuff work in a wide space and 16 bit and do all your extra work in this mode. Otherwise you are losing all the benefits of the M8 and it's wide color space on the DNG's

[ChrisC]

Originally Posted by Samir Jahjah

.. Michael Reichman shows that when possible, one should work with the largest color space, that is Pro Photo......

Samir - I hope you have misquoted or misconstrued MR, better advice would be that one works with the largest colour space that JUST contains the colours you need from your capture device, and that most likely will be a colour space smaller than Pro Photo [which might be uncomfortably too large].

The colour information within the RAW file has to be brought in to a pre-selected working colour space, my suspicion is that your working space is set for Adobe 98 in CS3 [which will clip some colour information in the original capture]. If that isn't the case, what colour space is your working space?

As Jack pointed out, the colour space selected in the M8 is only to tag M8 JPegs and is irrelevant for the RAW files. Hope you get further, like Jack - I too am a little confused by your problem.

..............Chris

[carstenw]

IIRC, Adobe RGB, although larger than sRGB by quite a margin, does not quite cover all colours which a camera is capable of. I am not sure if it covers the output capabilities of a good printer either. Since Pro Photo RGB is a bit larger, it can solve some colour difficulties, although it does space out your values a bit.

[Stan Yoder]

So I take my M8 DNG file and open it in ACR. I then select ProPhoto color space. I then save in psd. I get a dialog box saying the embedded space is different from the current (PP, I assume) space. Where does the embedded space come from: you say DNG is neutral; is it then from psd? Anyway, I convert to the current (PP), go to print and tell it to let PS determine color, right? (Printer is Epson R800.)

TIA,
Stan Yoder

[Jack_Flesher]

While it is relatively easy to answer specific questions and offer specific tips on workflow, I thnk we are getting quite a ways beyond the scope of a forum to handle. Maybe we should consider offereing a basic -> intermediate image processing, digital workflow and printing workshop specifically for M8 shooters or others relatively new to digital. As Guy alluded to earlier, there is SO much good stuff to be gleaned from a properly processed M8 raw file..

The basics of what you need to do are:

1) Your raw converter (often also your browser) needs to output a file in your desired working color space and bit-depth, this is most especially important IF you plan on sending that file to an image editor for additional work. For a variety of reasons, a 16-bit per channel Prophoto RGB tiff is an excellent starting point, though it requires a certain amount of processing knowledge to avoid messing things up. Second in my estimation would be a 16-bit per channel Adobe RGB tiff, while dead last is an 8-bit sRGB jpeg.

2) Now you can open that file in your image editor -- most of us will use CS3 -- to work on it. And CS3 (or other editor) needs to be properly set up to use your desired color working environment properly. (Editing properly is a complex learning curve all by itself.)

3) Once editing is complete, the resulting files need to be saved, and usually in more than one way:

3a) You might save a working copy complete with all adjustment layers, then you might

3b) additionally store one or more layered or flattened print versions, each sharpened for desired output size and possibly processed differently and/or tagged with different profiles for different printers, and

3c ) finally, you may also want a web version or two, each probably having some different processing than the print versions, and most certainly different color settings.

4) Once these multiple versions are saved, you need to be able to manage them in an efficient and logical fashion so as to find them easily at some future date.

Each of these steps can be fairly involved to learn to execute efficiently and properly. A lot of good information is available for free online if one wants to take the time to search for, distill and digest it. There are several books on the subject as well, though in my opinion the fastest road to proficiency with this is through a hands-on workshop.

Cheers,