M8 and a Shift lens

[guy_mancuso]

Well once again nothing like having a shift lens sometimes. I got a call from a new Aerospace client that needed a cockpit shot in a rush , so i drove to Lake Havasu and shot my brother in laws plane in 115 degree heat, not funliving here in the summer. The client will be dropping in new avionic's into the shot but one part of the request was to keep the Yoke out as much as possible. Well if you lifted a normal lens high enough to do that you would simple cut the bottom out trying to hold straight vertical lines. here is were the shift lens works it magic. The camera and lens were at ceiling height using a Olympus 24mm shift lens that is modified in the mount for a Leica R than a R to M adapter. Than i guessed at my focusing stopped down to F11 than shifted the lens down through trial and error using the LCD to get the placement correct , than zooming in to see if i was nailing the focus on what i was guessing at. Clinical image but it pays the bills , but as you can see it clearly works with a little work at it and obviously shows how important the LCD is to this type of work. BTW i do not like fixing this stuff in PS with prespective corrections it does take a toll on the image , so basically straight out of the M8. Now i would add a blue sky or something in the windshield but i wanted to point out just a touch of CA in the windshield. Anyway just thought i would post this for the shift folks out there that do this a little easier with a DSLR but still can be done effectively with a RF camera. I love shooting stuff that leica and there loyal diehardt reporter camera fans think that is all a RF camera is good for is journalism work. WRONG

[guy_mancuso]

Went back and processed again in LR and knocked out some of that CA you see in the above shot plus I needed to skew the right side a touch down. Looks just about perfect now

[marknorton]

Guy, very interesting, how far off axis did you shift the 24mm lens? I use a shift and tilt lens on a Nikon for just this sort of stuff, but it would be too long (85mm/1.5 crop factor) for this shot.

As for the view out of the window, how about an upside-down view of the city, that would add interest...

[Artichoke]

I really more need a t/s lens
good to see you extending the use of your M8 & sharing this experience with us
as you know I have been playing around a great deal with using the M8 with the Viso for Macros (where tilt is really very useful) & wish I had a simple way to get my 85 PC T/S Nikkor to work with the M8, though the combination would be curiously unbalanced looking
I have also given tele photography a go with the Viso, but I think this is a bit more of a stretch than macros, where the Viso/bellows combination actually has some advantages over a DSLR
nice work, btw

[guy_mancuso]

I think I shifted about 6 to 8 degrees down did not make much note of the amount just watched my framing . i knew i want to be as high as possible than bring it down from there because of the yoke in the way. With the wide angle shift lenses i find much less need for the tilt part but for example product shots with a 80mm focal length that tilt and shift becomes very useful. Again when i do those than i get into the cheating mode with the 90 macro and use PS to correct the vertical lines. Not a perfect solution but you have to do what you have to do sometimes , it also helps the fix is not as severe as a shot like this because the converging lines would really be bad if i just aimed down. yes the DSLR here is really needed so you can actually see that tilt part. i posted this so folks can see how to get around a little easier when something like this is called for and yes the RF camera's may not be the perfect solution but they will get it done.

Now teles i think even with the Viso is tough although the Viso lenses are very nice and you can do it pretty well. macro , have to be honest here i don't need a DSLR at all, been getting great stuff with the 90 macro and the attachment than ifmore is needed you jump into the Viso , so really not a big issue with macro i am seeing

Artichoke I did have that 85 mm PC nikon at one time and it is really a awesome T/S lens actually i like it better than canons 90mm. I tried to have the Nikon converted to the R mount but could not be done and reason i bought the D200 was just for that lens. Nikon is the only one with a aperure ring so that is the only choice. i thought there ws a Nikon to M adapter out there somewhere, maybe i am confused on that one

[carstenw]

Would this shot have worked with the WATE and just cropping the top of the image, Guy? Perhaps even two portrait-orientation shots and stich them for more resolution.

[wlaidlaw]

Guy,

All credit to you that you managed it optically. Two points - would it not have been 100% easier with an SLR? Secondly if you wanted to use an M8, could you not just have used a non-shift lens and then used the layer transform tool in photoshop? In my case, I no longer have an SLR or a shift lens, I can't get 6.5 x 9.5 cm plates for my Wirgin, shift lens, view camera, whose roll film back has started to leak light in a number of places, so it would have to be Photoshop.

BTW if anyone has a 75.6mm x 118mm (outside dimensions) 6cm x 9cm (image size) 120/620 roll film back, that is surplus to requirements and in reasonable condition, I would love to buy it - please PM me.

Wilson

[guy_mancuso]

Originally Posted by carstenw

Would this shot have worked with the WATE and just cropping the top of the image, Guy? Perhaps even two portrait-orientation shots and stich them for more resolution.

Yes you possible could do it with similar results. The problem would be having a tripod head that can shift. You can't twist from one side to the other because it would cause even more distortion , so you need a tripod head that can move from East to West and maybe even take three shots than stitch and than crop off the top.

[guy_mancuso]

Originally Posted by wlaidlaw

Guy,

All credit to you that you managed it optically. Two points - would it not have been 100% easier with an SLR? Secondly if you wanted to use an M8, could you not just have used a non-shift lens and then used the layer transform tool in photoshop? In my case, I no longer have an SLR or a shift lens, I can't get 6.5 x 9.5 cm plates for my Wirgin, shift lens, view camera, whose roll film back has started to leak light in a number of places, so it would have to be Photoshop.

BTW if anyone has a 75.6mm x 118mm (outside dimensions) 6cm x 9cm (image size) 120/620 roll film back, that is surplus to requirements and in reasonable condition, I would love to buy it - please PM me.

Wilson

No question easier to manage witha SLR type camera but if you don't have one and if you don't have a shift lens than your shot would look similar to this if you maintained the height you needed and shot looking down. Now here is the problem when you fix it with transform is your killing pixels . When you fix in PS than you would bring it in than crop well you maybe cropping off 20 percent or more of your image so you will lose some mpx in the process. Also transform and some of the other tools like it in PS are a wonder no doubt but from what i was told is mathematically it kills pixels with the transforming of a image. So yes it can be done but again probably not the best solution and i do use it with the 90 macro and product work but it is much less severe movements.

If you stood at the base of a building shooting up and than transformed it you will see in PS what will get cut in the MPX when you crop it.


This is probably what it woud have looked like shooting down, so you see what i would have had to do

[vanhulsenbeek]

Originally Posted by guy_mancuso

Now here is the problem when you fix it with transform is your killing pixels . When you fix in PS than you would bring it in than crop well you maybe cropping off 20 percent or more of your image so you will lose some mpx in the process.

Two other solutions - somewhat exotic though - come to mind:

1.Yesterday I saw at Foto Nivo Schweizer in Amsterdam, Netherlands ( foto nivo schweitzer ) two Carl Zeiss lenses for Hasselblad, that were totally reworked in Tilt/Shift mounts for Canon Eos Digital mount.The reworking is done in Russia and includes a wonderful new aperture ring with a circulare aperture instead of the 5 blade - Hasselblad aperture.

Tilt/Shift Photography Links (see red text a little down)
Hartblei 35mm super-rotator first impression [Page 1]: Canon SLR Lens Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

2. Use a panorama setup as Novoflex' :

Spezialzubehör der Fotografie and co_sz10 VR system PRO (for some reason not visible at the English language part of the Novoflex site)

A friend of mine uses this technique for industrial photopgrahy, like for for pictures of big engines etc. . He make three horizontal rows of pictures, the upper and lower pointing 30 degrees above and below the middle row. Stitched in programs like PtGui ( Photo stitching software 360 degree Panorama image software - PTGui ), the result is an extremely high res - so without the downbeat of losing pixels while skewing in PS - picture that can be zoomed in at wil. Amazing! Clients love it.

Comes at 650 Eur plus 50EUR for PtGui: a steal! Some of this stuff at Corrour Groupblog 2007: PTGUI HDR , including HDR versions of such 3-row panoramas. (High Dynamic Range)

[wlaidlaw]

I regret to advise that the website of Kiev Camera now seems to have become a porn site - what a sad end to a camera company that had been trying its innovative best in the difficult circumstances of recent years.

Wilson

[carstenw]

Kiev Camera

[Shootist]

Originally Posted by carstenw

Kiev Camera

And where does that link go to???

[carstenw]

A camera maker

[wlaidlaw]

Originally Posted by carstenw

A camera maker

Then click on the links on the kievcamera.net and you get taken to kievcamera.com, which is a porn site. I assume they must have been hi-jacked.

Wilson

[carstenw]

That doesn't happen to me. I just jump around on kievcamera.net and look at lenses, focusing screens, and so on. Also, presuming that you are more interested in shift lenses, ie. Hartblei, go here, their new address:

Hartblei Lenses

[AlanG]

It looks like a bit of a challenge to use a shift lens on an M8 but I guess if you are working on a tripod and have time, then you can get it framed accurately.

I use shift lenses pretty extensively. I have 6 of them including a Russian 80mm 2.8 shift tilt. I don't use that one too often but I remember it being pretty sharp but a little prone to overall flare. Mostly I use it tilted and wide open for a narrow focus effect, so sharpness is not my main concern. My version has a very fine shift thread so you have to turn it many times to get much movement. The new Hartblei Super rotator looks like a much better mount by far. All of the longer Russian Hartblei lenses should be pretty good.

I guess this and the other Russian lenses could be adapted to the M8. I also have the 55 mm (shift only) which is a very good performer but massive and heavy as it was made for 6x6.

I tried the Russain 35mm shift lens and it was not nearly as good as my 35mm Nikkor. Maybe the new Hartblei 35mm is better, but I'm not sure if it is different optically.
HARTBLEI 35mm Super-Rotator Tilt Shift Lens | HARTBLEI

I saw the Hartblei Zeiss lenses at Photo Expo last year but again they are pretty big, heavy and expensive. I'm not sure if the Zeiss glass is worth he cost as my Russian 55 is suprisingly good. (It is almost always stopped down to f8 or smaller.) Why someone would want that large 40mm Zeiss vs. a 35mm Nikkor PC is beyond me. Keep in mind that with the wider/tilt shift lenses, the there is so much depth of field that tilting does not give the extreme out of focus effect that one can get with a wide angle lens on a view camera.

Michael Foreman in Atlanta is the one to talk to about the Hartblei and other Russian lenses. If you are sceptical, he probably will allow you to return it if you don't like it. (He offered that for me and I took advantage of it on one lens.)

The Nikkor 28 and 35 adapted to the Leica might be a good way to go for moderate w/a.
I'd think using a tilt on the M8 would really be a case of extreme trial and error, but if you want to go for it, maybe have a look at this site:

Welcome to Zörk Film & Phototechnic

As everyone probably knows, the full frame Canons are the best solution for this as pretty much every shift lens in existence can work on it and you get the full 24mm wide angle result. But as Guy proved, where there is a will there is a way. And the Canon lenses have auto diaphragms and electronic camera interface, which is a big plus for handheld shooting compared to working stopped down. My only complaint with the Canon TSE lenses is that it is too easy to accidently have them tilted a little. I'd like to see a way to positively lock them as I almost only use the shift feature on my 24 and 45.

Remember that shiftng throws off the metering in Nikon and Canon cameras. (I presume in Leicas too.)

[frasier]

This ´might be a stupid question. But you mentioned a Nikkor to M-Adapter above. I would be interested to know if there is a M to Nikon-Adapter somewhere, so I could use my M-lenses on my D200??? But if I could also use the Nikkors on my M, this would be just as nice

Greetings from Würzburg, Germany
Jochen

[wlaidlaw]

I have to admit I am a bit tempted to get one of these shift lenses. I already have an M42 to Leica M adapter for my Zenitar 16/2,8 fish-eye, which works surprisingly well on the M8. Here is one I took to explain some of the things about my house to some friends. A bit of flare but it was a VERY bright day.

Wilson

[carstenw]

Jochen, the adapter must have the thickness of the lensmount-to-film distance of the source camera minus the lensmound-to-film distance of the target camera. The nikon is 46mm and the M is somewhere in the 28.8mm range. That would make an M-to-Nikon adapter -17.2mm thick (note the minus).