Are new M8's being shipped with the upgrade?

[Mark Maio]

I searched the Forum files but could not find an answer to this, so I apologize it it is there and I missed it.

With the announcement of the shutter and LCD cover glass upgrades, I cannot find out when new M8's will have this upgraded hardware. Obviously there are M8's still in stock without the upgrade but I have yet to see when or if the hardware upgrades have been implemented on new cameras being shipped.

Thank you,

Mark Maio

[marknorton]

No, and it's not clear whether they ever will be, such is the continuing confusion surrounding the upgrade program. The upgrade starts in a scarcely believable 6 months time and it's strange they chose to announce it so far in advance when all that does is create uncertainty and confusion and buyers will rightly adopt a wait and see attitude. In the meantime, sales hit a brick wall in an already slowing market. I call it madness.

[Mark Maio]

Thanks for clearing that up for me. I thought I was going crazy because I could not believe they would announce an upgrade and then continue selling cameras that didn't have it. So if you buy a new M8 now or in the near future ($5,500 US), you will still have to pay an additional fee (appx. $1,200 US) for the upgrade. Now I know it isn't me who is crazy.

Mark Maio

[pascal_meheut]

Because of the warranty included in the upgrade, someone suggested that it was a good idea to buy a 2nd hand body if this is what you want.

However, it is not clear if the new upgrade program includes a full CLA and if the extension of warranty applies even if the primary one has expired.

Also, not that the "upgrade" is an option. According the the poll in this forum, a lot of people do not have the need for a more silent shutter. So continuing to sell the normal, faster shutter makes sense.
But one could argue that it should be possible to order a new camera "a la carte" without paying the full upgrade price indeed.

[adan]

Mark M.: Part of the confusion lies in calling the alternative shutter an "upgrade" - which implies an improvement like more pixels or less image noise.

It is a quieter shutter - which is an improvement for some, but limits the top speed and flash-sync speed, which others may consider a "downgrade", as Pascal says. And for those - incorporating the "new" shutter into all M8s built, now or later, would seem to be a "downgrade" of the camera as a whole - for more money.

Leica's statement is that they are and will continue to build and sell the M8 as originally designed. And users - at their own option - may have the cameras modified in various ways from the "base" model.

Mark N.: "In the meantime, sales hit a brick wall....." Numbers to back this statement up can be found where....?

Personally - I go back and forth on whether the "upgrades" should simply be added to production cameras as they come along. It makes sense if the upgrade really is a universal improvement - like a sensor with more pixels, or less noise, or addition of a PC sync outlet, or tighter framelines. But on the other hand, if the accretion of upgrades means that all new M8-Xs cost $6,500, or $7,500 and so on, the entry price becomes even more extreme.

[marknorton]

Andy, my prediction only. We'll see how Leica 1st half sales for 2008-2009 are.

I agree with you that the shutter should not be called an upgrade because there are valid reasons to stay with the current one. I do think though that if it was offered as an alternative in a new camera, it would not cost anything like the retro-fit cost, might even be at zero cost, because so much of the upgrade cost is taken up in logistics, labour, additional warranty plus, as you have pointed out, the replacement of the shutter and discarding of a perfectly usable old one.

[Cordell]

Originally Posted by marknorton

No, and it's not clear whether they ever will be, such is the continuing confusion surrounding the upgrade program. The upgrade starts in a scarcely believable 6 months time and it's strange they chose to announce it so far in advance when all that does is create uncertainty and confusion and buyers will rightly adopt a wait and see attitude. In the meantime, sales hit a brick wall in an already slowing market. I call it madness.

I agree and mentioned this before. Leica's hasty revamping of the upgrade program right after the firing of Lee is the stupidest piece of PR bungling I've seen in as long as I can remember. In a transparent attempt to sell the entire upgrade they create a ridiculous price for the LCD-standalone, they cut the warranty in half, and renig on the offer to pick up the in-bound shipping cost. In an attempt to placate their dealers, they unavoidably reveal to the buyers that the company has enough wiggle-room in the cost of the upgrades to apportion some of it to middlemen. Maybe Lee's original plan was not feasible, I don't know. Clearly there was dissention in the boardroom and Lee lost the power play. But from a PR standpoint, Leica should have kept quiet at least until they named a new CEO, because their image now is one of a headless body running amok bumping into walls. AS as you point out, it isn't as if the upgrade program was set to start immediately, there was plenty of time to brainstorm, trouble-shoot and fine-tune the program, not to mention high-polish the wording of the announcement so that it didn't create more vaguery and confusion.

[delander]

They have a CEO and I don't see them as a headless body running amok

Jeff

[Cordell]

Who is the new CEO, or are you referring to Dr. Kaufmann, the chairman, acting in that capacity? From a corporate manager's perspective in light of the upgrade-revamp, the headless analogy is clear, whether or not you personally see it that way.

[delander]

I am referring to Dr Kaufman and as the announcement stated that he would be CEO until next year my view is that he will take a hands-on approach. So I cant agree with you that they are headless and running amok.

This is a small and historic camera/optical company with no previous in-house in depth electronics capability trying to move its core camera lines into the digital age. I really think we should cut them some slack.

Jeff

[jrc]

Instead of selling it as an upgrade, perhaps they should sell it as an "optional configuration" for people who require a stealthier camera. That makes it look like a benefit, rather than a repair. Same with the new cover glass on the LCD; for me, scratches on the old LCD are a non-issue. I've had my (replacement) camera for a year, and there are no scratches. I think calling it an "upgrade" caused some anxiety in our perfectionist members who feel they should have the best possible version of the camera. If Leica said there was no *best* version, but only different options, then we could have nice congenial forum arguments about which was best, but nobody would feel they had an inferior camera.

In passing -- I have a Nikon D300 which comes with a transparent snap-on hard-plastic cover on the LCD. It works fine, and probably cost 25 cents.

One thing that happened after Lee's initial upgrade announcement was that people on this forum and others immediately began interpreting and reinterpreting what he said, and a significant number seemed to come to the conclusion that the M8 would be upgraded forever, including new sensors. I don't think that was ever intended, or even said -- it was purely generated by these forums.

Any such promise or intention would create crazy engineering and marketing problems that would simultaneously freeze Leica design, prevent what would otherwise be easy and significant improvements in later models, and possibly even open the company to a variety of lawsuits. I think the upgrade program (which is now being revised) was intended to change superficial aspects of the camera for people who needed them. The changing of a shutter might not seem to be superficial, but the *intention* was to take an already reasonably quiet camera and make it even quieter...which is superficial. I think most people would have been happy if Lee had simply announced that Leica was making it a clear objective in the M9 to have a quieter camera.

JC

[daveco]

Yes, I think "option" is a better term than "upgrade".

[dfarkas]

In reply to the original question of whether Leica would sell upgraded cameras at retail:

What we heard (as a dealer) at PMA was that we would be able to purchase the M8 as is today AND the upgraded version when they became available.

The upgrade program was designed to create value for the M8 as is now, in that there is less fear of buying a soon-to-be-obsolete camera. Also, in staying true to Leica's philosophy of a long-lasting "investment" the M8 is intented to be upgraded as technology progresses, instead of merely being replaced by the latest and greatest. In effect, you always have the latest and greatest if you chose to upgrade the camera, including a new warranty. How much value would you lose if an M9 was announced, you sold your M8 and purchased a new M9? It would probably be greater than the $1,500 or so for an upgrade of your existing M8, wouldn't it?

Dealers (at least myself) aren't upset and don't need placating.

Whether the program is going to work this way or not going forward, I'm not sure. And on that note...

Steven Lee wasn't fired for giving an interview at PMA or launching the upgrade program. The reality is that Dr. Kaufmann gave WAY more information at the LHSA meeting keynote address back in October. Lee's comments didn't even scratch the surface by comparision. He was let go prpbably due to other, larger factors. I could guess that the (lack of) service situation, product delivery shortages and a leadership sytle that didn't quite gel with the corporate culture might have had more to do with it.

Having met him and hearing him speak at the LHSA meeting, I can tell you that Kaufmann is more than capable of leading the company. He hired Lee in the first place to help him realize his (Kaufmann's) vision for the future of Leica. Things didn't go as planned and Kaufmann is now taking the reigns. The company is moving next year (Jan 2009) back to Wetzlar into a brand-new, modernized factory that is much larger than the Solms facility. It is being built from the ground-up, specifically for optics and camera production with the aid of Porsche Consulting. He is stressing innovation and history at the same time. Kaufmann himself is long-time Leica collector and shooter. He has the funds to do thing right, which is why he owns all the shares personally as of the last board meeting. He didn't want Leica's future to be slowed or steered by outside investors. This is a man with a plan.

Have faith guys. Leica is not a headless man. All good things.....

David

[rweisz]

Thanks David, that answers many of the questions I had on my mind but was afraid to ask in the open. I'm glad you cleared it up that Mr. Lee wasn't fired for giving out information at PMA, which was claimed by someone on here who I gather works for Leica testing something or other. I'm also happy to hear that he wasn't fired because he upset the Leica dealers, which was also claimed here based on something some dealer in Europe said in a statement. It was starting to scare me a little that Leica was in a turmoil again like they were before Kaufmann took over.

I have a question for you (and anyone else of course) due to a dilemma at this time. My M8 stopped working last Monday. It made a noise like it was shooting rapid-fire, then stopped. On the back it said "Shutter Error" and when I took off the lens it looks like one of the shutter curtains (leaves?) is bent and crunched against the one below it. I emailed Leica (US and Solms) asking if when I ship it for repairs, would they be able to put in the new slow/quiet shutter now or would I have to wait until August. So far I have not gotten any reply. It seems to me a waste to have my M8 gone for several months now and them put me in the fast shutter and by the time I get it back then turn around and send it off for another several months to have the slow/quiet shutter installed. Do you know if Leica already has the slow/quiet shutters in stock? BTW how long does it usually take to get a response from Leica by email?

Thanks,
Ray

[carstenw]

I can't answer the question as to whether Leica has the parts in stock, but I suppose they will still ask you for the "upgrade" price, since otherwise, they would likely have a spate of "broken" shutters on their hands in short order...

[dfarkas]

I wouldn't imagine that they have any of the shutters in stock at this point if they aren't planning on doing the upgrade until September. Of course, it never hurts to ask. I had a customer order an a la carte MP and he got Leica to put in MP3 LHSA edition viewfinder framelines, which were more accurate at 50mm.

Regarding email, they are usually pretty responsive. Whether you get the desired respone, I can't say.

I'm sorry to hear about your shutter error. This is not very common.

David

[guy]

Originally Posted by dfarkas

In reply to the original question of whether Leica would sell upgraded cameras at retail:

What we heard (as a dealer) at PMA was that we would be able to purchase the M8 as is today AND the upgraded version when they became available.

The upgrade program was designed to create value for the M8 as is now, in that there is less fear of buying a soon-to-be-obsolete camera. Also, in staying true to Leica's philosophy of a long-lasting "investment" the M8 is intented to be upgraded as technology progresses, instead of merely being replaced by the latest and greatest. In effect, you always have the latest and greatest if you chose to upgrade the camera, including a new warranty. How much value would you lose if an M9 was announced, you sold your M8 and purchased a new M9? It would probably be greater than the $1,500 or so for an upgrade of your existing M8, wouldn't it?

Dealers (at least myself) aren't upset and don't need placating.

Whether the program is going to work this way or not going forward, I'm not sure. And on that note...

Steven Lee wasn't fired for giving an interview at PMA or launching the upgrade program. The reality is that Dr. Kaufmann gave WAY more information at the LHSA meeting keynote address back in October. Lee's comments didn't even scratch the surface by comparision. He was let go prpbably due to other, larger factors. I could guess that the (lack of) service situation, product delivery shortages and a leadership sytle that didn't quite gel with the corporate culture might have had more to do with it.

Having met him and hearing him speak at the LHSA meeting, I can tell you that Kaufmann is more than capable of leading the company. He hired Lee in the first place to help him realize his (Kaufmann's) vision for the future of Leica. Things didn't go as planned and Kaufmann is now taking the reigns. The company is moving next year (Jan 2009) back to Wetzlar into a brand-new, modernized factory that is much larger than the Solms facility. It is being built from the ground-up, specifically for optics and camera production with the aid of Porsche Consulting. He is stressing innovation and history at the same time. Kaufmann himself is long-time Leica collector and shooter. He has the funds to do thing right, which is why he owns all the shares personally as of the last board meeting. He didn't want Leica's future to be slowed or steered by outside investors. This is a man with a plan.

Have faith guys. Leica is not a headless man. All good things.....

David

Thanks for this, David. It's reassuring stuff. Kaufmann in particular sounds like good news.

[eudemian]

Thank you for that informative and measured response David. This reassures me, and give me confidence that Leica is moving forward and is far from falling over.

If what you say is true then I can relax a little and discount the fevered speculations that erupt every now and then on the forum.

I am constantly finding new things about my M8 and my lack of photographic skills, (did HCB ever take a bad picture?? that would encourage me no end) I want this to be a long term project.

[stunsworth]

Originally Posted by eudemian

...did HCB ever take a bad picture??

Of course, but he didn't let anyone see them <grin>

[pascal_meheut]

Originally Posted by eudemian

did HCB ever take a bad picture??

Plenty of them. He said the first 10000 pictures are the worst or something like that. And he shot a lot, 2 films before breakfast some days, 1000 pictures a day on occasion.
Considering he published a few thousands of them during his entire life, one can guess he had a pretty low success rate.
Of course, the rare good ones were memorable.