Base plate failure,

[diogenis]

Originally Posted by AlanG

Are you aware of any other make or model of camera that broke causing it to fall off of a tripod? Your statement connecting the M8 base failure with death is not clear. Do you mean that base plate failure is inevitable too? Or do you simply mean this isn't so bad considering we will each die someday?

I bet base plate mounting failure is inevitable for at least a few or even many more cases. What is the likelihood that the only cameras that will fail already have done so? How would you come up with those odds? What makes the failed cameras different from those that have not failed?

Alan, regarding that failure, there is a linear degree of fatiguing in the material causing it to break. For fatigue to occur there are again some reasons for it. How many manufacturers have you known to accept that fact and offer a free replacement/service of their product?
Of course, not every camera is getting a free pass from all of that, because not all case should be treated equal. Some do misuse their cameras more than others, and this is what Leica said for Godfrey's case.
5 incidents are a real small sample that can verify the fact that there is a small very small chance for it to break.

[farnz]

Perhaps it's helpful to think of it in these terms:

Imagine a vast aircraft hanger or warehouse where laid out on tables are 200 rows of boxed M8s, and each row is 100 M8s deep. You are told that 5 of the 20,000 M8s will have a problem where the body shell will break but that Leica will fix for free and you can buy any of the M8s. Would the presence of those 5 stop you from choosing and buying one of the 20,000 M8s?

Pete.

[diogenis]

Maybe, some believe that because they pay a lot for their camera (M8) they can also expect to demand a lot, even if they miss treat the cameras. Every product and M8 is no exception follows some very specific specs. I wonder if something like that ever happened to a Canon how would Canon have reacted? What did you believe? Alan?

[AlanG]

Originally Posted by diogenis

Maybe, some believe that because they pay a lot for their camera (M8) they can also expect to demand a lot, even if they miss treat the cameras. Every product and M8 is no exception follows some very specific specs. I wonder if something like that ever happened to a Canon how would Canon have reacted? What did you believe? Alan?

I think Canon or Nikon would fix it for free if it clearly was a design or manufacturing fault. I have a Canon SD800, a tiny inexpensive p&s that I use occasionally - mostly on ski trips because it is so small. At some point I looked closely at my shots and realized the lens was misaligned. It was out of warranty but I saw that the problem existed since it was new. I sent it to Canon with that explanation and some samples, and they fixed it for free. Turn around time was less than a week. Of course they could have told me that I must have bent the lens myself.

If the tripod mount of a pro model Canon or Nikon ripped out it would probably have to be the result of a camera and tripod falling a considerable distance. Hence it would be abuse. I've had a Canon 1Ds and tripod topple over onto a hard floor with no damage. I would expect that I could grasp a Canon or Nikon (pro models) while it is on a heavy tripod and lift the tripod up and swing it around with no damage too.

Back to tripod mounting. I think knowing that there is even a 1 in 6000 chance that tripod mounting could fail on any camera would really disturb me. I work on a tripod a lot and often use panorama heads with the camera in a vertical position. And I have used gyro stabilizers for aerial work. Carrying a tripod over my shoulder with a camera attached is something I've done with every camera I have owned. Most of these cameras weighed a lot more than an M8.

Specifically, what bothers me about the M8 base plate mounting isn't just the possibility of the failure, it is my inability to understand how Leica could have designed it that way in the first place. And why haven't they redesigned it or beefed it up since. This seems so simple. So it is more about how my respect for Leica is diminished than anything else.

I used to own a Leica Ortholux microscope. (60s vintage) You should look at one of those if you want to see the level of craftsmanship I used to expect from Leica.

[xrogers]

Originally Posted by AlanG

I have a Canon SD800...

Understood, but the situation isn't usefully comparable in too many details. We could argue about the similarities and differences, but that seems pointless.

Originally Posted by AlanG

I've had a Canon 1Ds and tripod topple over onto a hard floor with no damage.

I've seen high end cameras badly damaged by similar drops. It's all in how they land, and what they land upon.

Originally Posted by AlanG

I would expect that I could grasp a Canon or Nikon (pro models) while it is on a heavy tripod and lift the tripod up and swing it around with no damage too.

Maybe. I guess it would depend how vigorously you swung it. My mental image of this activity damages any camera. I've been told that I have a pretty vivid imagination...

Originally Posted by AlanG

Back to tripod mounting. I think knowing that there is even a 1 in 6000 chance that tripod mounting could fail on any camera would really disturb me.

I won't argue with that. I won't ever even consider carrying my M8 on a tripod, and I have regularly done that with medium and large format cameras (but not usually for smaller cameras). I don't think any manufacturer recommends doing this, and I also expect that if my Canon spontaneously cracked off the tripod when carrying like this, Canon would not cover the repair.

I spoke to one manufacturer of camera mounting plates that unequivocally told me carrying any camera on a tripod was foolish. I bet they've seen some interesting failures. I still do it---I've got a Phillips 4x5 that could stand tripod-attached abuse that would put any Leica, Canon or Nikon to shame!

Originally Posted by AlanG

Specifically, what bothers me about the M8 base plate mounting isn't just the possibility of the failure, it is my inability to understand how Leica could have designed it that way in the first place. And why haven't they redesigned it or beefed it up since. This seems so simple. So it is more about how my respect for Leica is diminished than anything else.

It sounds like it is uncommon enough that they may only just be realizing there's an issue. I wouldn't be surprised to see a beefed up version quietly appear in the production stream sometime in the next year. Personally, I don't mind the design at all in general use.

I don't quite understand why this dead horse is getting such a beating, but to each his own.

Until later,

Clyde

[AlanG]

Originally Posted by xrogers

I don't quite understand why this dead horse is getting such a beating, but to each his own.

Someone asked me.

[xrogers]

Originally Posted by AlanG

Someone asked me.

Sorry Alan, I meant that in general, but when tagged on the end of your quotes, it appeared directed at you in particular.

Later,

Clyde

[diogenis]

Originally Posted by AlanG

Back to tripod mounting. I think knowing that there is even a 1 in 6000 chance that tripod mounting could fail on any camera would really disturb me. I work on a tripod a lot and often use panorama heads with the camera in a vertical position. And I have used gyro stabilizers for aerial work. Carrying a tripod over my shoulder with a camera attached is something I've done with every camera I have owned. Most of these cameras weighed a lot more than an M8.

Specifically, what bothers me about the M8 base plate mounting isn't just the possibility of the failure, it is my inability to understand how Leica could have designed it that way in the first place. And why haven't they redesigned it or beefed it up since. This seems so simple. So it is more about how my respect for Leica is diminished than anything else.

Yes, but you must realize that there is a risk factor to everything you do. There is a 1:10000 chance to get hit by a taxi, 1:1000000 to die from an airplane crash or get hit by a thunder. Still you do use taxis, airplanes and go out in thunderstorms taking pics.
You can still carry your camera around with your tripod, but you should realize that you do this on your own. And that any camera can eventually break lose, simply because forces that developing this way are more times more powerful than by just using it as intended. It might break it might not break, but this is your fault.
Really I don't see where the problem is, we are talking about a camera body of what? $5k? The manufacturer admitted that if that alloy breaks he will replace free of charge, so he secured you even more. What else do you need? To hang the designer by the neck in a public place?

[marknorton]

I think AlanG has completely lost it when he says a 1 in 6000 chance of the tripod mounting failing "would really disturb him". How do you ever get out of bed in the morning?

Let's say, he's 50. He also has a 1 in 200 chance of dying in the next year, an event 30 times more likely than his M8 falling to earth and, I would submit, a rather greater cause for him to be concerned.

[diogenis]

I didn't want to mention this, but I will:
Alan actually has a 1:5645 odds to get hit by a falling big black piano while walking on the pavement , as is evident clearly in Holywood movies

[AlanG]

Originally Posted by marknorton

I think AlanG has completely lost it when he says a 1 in 6000 chance of the tripod mounting failing "would really disturb him". How do you ever get out of bed in the morning?

Let's say, he's 50. He also has a 1 in 200 chance of dying in the next year, an event 30 times more likely than his M8 falling to earth and, I would submit, a rather greater cause for him to be concerned.

One can take precautions in life, eating well, exercising, not smoking, avoiding dangerous activities or situations, etc. This improves your odds. And one can choose to work with the most reliable equipment which also improves the odds of getting the images you are after. So if I want to mount a camera to a pole and hold it out from a roof or balcony, or mount it to the roll bar of my car, then I want to know it can handle it. A lot of wedding photographers mount cameras to flash brackets which puts a strain on the tripod mount.

The 1 in 6000 odds disturb me because they should be zero percent chance of failure in what I consider normal use. Plus as I previously wrote, I think Leica's designers should be better than this. The tripod mount on my Canon SD800 pocket size p&s looks much better than the M8's. I simply don't like having the tripod mount being part of a removable base.

Additionally, I don't buy that 6,000 to 1 figure because I believe more cameras have or will fail. Now if you wish to recalculate the odds of failure assuming every camera will be steadily used the way I use my cameras, then the odds might change dramatically to 1 in 100 or 1 in 10. But I couldn't do most of my types of work with an M8 if I wanted to. So it would get pretty light usage in my hands.

As for strength, here is a photo of me lifting a Linhof tripod that weighs about 10 lbs. I am leveraging this in the air solely by holding the body of a basic 50s era Pentax. The forces were pretty great as I could barely hold it while waiting for the self timer to trigger. I did this a few times and saw no signs of strain or damage. As you can see, the socket is strongly attached to the frame of the camera. Now if we repeat this test with 30,000 M8s, I wonder how many will break? I also closely examined the mounting plate on my Rollei 6006 and it is exceptionally strong and well designed. That is the kind of construction that I expect from a camera that will be employed by professionals.

[sungnee]

Originally Posted by AlanG

I also closely examined the mounting plate on my Rollei 6006 and it is exceptionally strong and well designed.

I'm sorry to post a reply almost a year later but I only saw this now. I must post this to make the information complete. I had not used a 6006 but I did have a 6008i. The mounting plate had a design flaw. The electronics of the 6008i shorted the circuits so that you could not fire a flash when the camera is mounted on a tripod. It's such a well known problem that Rollei actually sold a separate tripod mount to get around this problem.