Summicron 75mm versus CV 75mm-Sean Reid's new review

[Ecaton]

I just had the pleasure to read Sean Reid's newly published comparison of the 75/2.0 Apo- Summicron M with the 75/2.5 Color Heliar. The verdict on the Summicron might not surprise: probably one of the best lenses money can buy. What almost blew me away, though, is the outstanding performance of the inexpensive CV Heliar. I strongly recommend everybody to read Sean's review.

[sean_reid]

Thanks Martin. I think the 75 Heliar results may surprise many people, especially in the corners.

Cheers,

Sean

[gwelland]

i admit that I was a little shocked at the results after having just invested in the 'cron to round out my favourite 28/75 combo with Leica glass.

I already had the CV 75 and was generally extremely happy with it although I do find that the 'cron does have a certain intangible extra 'pop' in my images - I don't know what that really means objectively but I do see it in the images.

Given the price differentials you can almost buy the Heliar on a trial basis and see if you like it. In terms of value for money it is outstanding.

[rosuna]

I would like to see a review of the Summilux 75mm lens, even if it isn't compared to others. Maybe for a future article about "great out of production lenses on the M8" (Summicron 35mm, Summilux 75mm, Summilux 35mm Aspherical, Elmarit 28mm, etc.)? (just a suggestion).

Another suggestion: it would be a good idea to have a picture of the Leica M8 with the different lenses reviewed attached for making clearer the descriptions about size and handling, type of hoods, etc.

Great article and very, very interesting results !!!!

Best

Rubén

[sean_reid]

Originally Posted by gwelland

i admit that I was a little shocked at the results after having just invested in the 'cron to round out my favourite 28/75 combo with Leica glass.

I already had the CV 75 and was generally extremely happy with it although I do find that the 'cron does have a certain intangible extra 'pop' in my images - I don't know what that really means objectively but I do see it in the images.

Given the price differentials you can almost buy the Heliar on a trial basis and see if you like it. In terms of value for money it is outstanding.

The "pop" is mostly contrast. The Leica is a slightly higher-contrast lens. It also shows slightly higher resolution on center. As a rule (with some exceptions) the CV lenses tend to be of moderate contrast. That makes for less initial "pop" but greater effective dynamic range with the M8 (if the subject lighting is contrasty). It comes down to taste, intentions, etc. Some prefer more contrast in their lenses, others prefer more shadow info. Neither is universally "better".

Cheers,

Sean

[sean_reid]

Originally Posted by rosuna

I would have liked to have the Summilux 75mm added to the review! (it is not "aspherical", as the article says, it is a 1980 design by Michael Mandler). This review was the last chance to have a comprehensive review of this lens on digital cameras.

A question, please. Does "No successor has been announced" mean that there will be a ("aspherical") successor?

A suggestion: it would be a good idea to have a picture of the Leica M8 with the different lenses reviewed attached for making clear questions related to size and handling, type of hoods, etc.

Hi Ruben,

Kind of a grumpy post? <G> Sorry about the typo, its now fixed. That review wasn't the last chance for the Lux to be evaluated (by me at least). I do need to actually have one in my hands to review it though <G>. It will make it on to the site sometime.

Product pictures will be added, its already on my very long "to do" list.

Successor to the 75/1.4? No official word yet on one being made or planned. But the world is rich in possibilities, even Aspherical ones.

Cheers,

Sean

[sean_reid]

Originally Posted by gwelland

In terms of value for money it is outstanding.

I agree.

Cheers,

Sean

[rosuna]

Originally Posted by sean_reid

Hi Ruben,

Kind of a grumpy post?

Oh no, absolutely. Sorry. It is my English. Sorry very much, Sean. I apologize. I didn't want to be grumpy at all, sure.

I will try to clean a bit the original post.

Best,

Rubén

[Ecaton]

Originally Posted by gwelland

i admit that I was a little shocked at the results after having just invested in the 'cron to round out my favourite 28/75 combo with Leica glass.

I already had the CV 75 and was generally extremely happy with it although I do find that the 'cron does have a certain intangible extra 'pop' in my images - I don't know what that really means objectively but I do see it in the images.

Given the price differentials you can almost buy the Heliar on a trial basis and see if you like it. In terms of value for money it is outstanding.

I did the same with the 90mm focal length, i.e. just upgraded to the Apo Cron. Hope the CV Apo Lanthar does not give this one a run for the money, but at least I will get the extra speed.

Cheers

[carstenw]

I believe that Dr. Walter Mandler designed the 75mm Summilux-M, not Michael.

[hankg]

Excellent review Sean. I wonder if the floating elements of the Leica would give it an advantage closer in? The 90 Apo-Summicron while stellar at mid to infinity distances is reputed to be not as good in it's near range. I was surprised by the performance of the CV and the lack of harshness of the 75. Rendering was very nice on both lenses.

I'd be curious as to how the 3 Leica 90's and the CV 90 stack up against this group. Would you consider adding the 90's to the 75 review? I wonder if Zeiss would be willing to lend the new 85? I'm still looking for a long close in lens 75 or 90. I'm thinking to give the 90/4 macro another try as I'd be using this lens at f4 - f/8. My first copy backfocused badly and DAG could not adjust it so that scared me off but others seem very happy with the lens. I'll make sure I get a properly calibrated copy this time.

I wonder if in the future lensmakers will back off the macro-contrast a bit because of digital (doesn't help when shooting slides either). The Zeiss ZM's are stellar but the high contrast is a deal killer for me for use on the M8.

[sean_reid]

Originally Posted by Ecaton

I did the same with the 90mm focal length, i.e. just upgraded to the Apo Cron. Hope the CV Apo Lanthar does not give this one a run for the money, but at least I will get the extra speed.

Cheers

Odds are that it will do just that but I'm sure there will be some key differences as well. The 90s will get their own article. I've been trying to work my way through all of the key focal lengths, starting last September:

Ultrawides - in testing and draft now
21s - done
24/25s - done
28s - done
35s - in testing and draft now
50s - done (slower 50s will be a future piece)
75s - done (75 Lux will be covered in a future article)
90s - on deck when the ultrawides and 35s are done

Cheers,

Sean

[sean_reid]

Originally Posted by rosuna

Oh no, absolutely. Sorry. It is my English. Sorry very much, Sean. I apologize. I didn't want to be grumpy at all, sure.

I will try to clean a bit the original post.

Best,

Rubén

Hi Ruben,

Just teasing you a bit...

Cheers,

Sean

[elansprint72]

Well here's a grumpy post--- why not use the M8 forum for M8 stuff?

[sean_reid]

Originally Posted by hankg

Excellent review Sean. I wonder if the floating elements of the Leica would give it an advantage closer in? The 90 Apo-Summicron while stellar at mid to infinity distances is reputed to be not as good in it's near range. I was surprised by the performance of the CV and the lack of harshness of the 75. Rendering was very nice on both lenses.

I'd be curious as to how the 3 Leica 90's and the CV 90 stack up against this group. Would you consider adding the 90's to the 75 review? I wonder if Zeiss would be willing to lend the new 85? I'm still looking for a long close in lens 75 or 90. I'm thinking to give the 90/4 macro another try as I'd be using this lens at f4 - f/8. My first copy backfocused badly and DAG could not adjust it so that scared me off but others seem very happy with the lens. I'll make sure I get a properly calibrated copy this time.

I wonder if in the future lensmakers will back off the macro-contrast a bit because of digital (doesn't help when shooting slides either). The Zeiss ZM's are stellar but the high contrast is a deal killer for me for use on the M8.

If you look at the focus drift tests, you'll see that both do very well on center at 3.3 feet (or whatever that distance was) but, of course, the Leica can focus much closer. As you mentioned, the CV 75 isn't harsh at all. The challenge with many lens discussions is that they have, so often in the past, slipped into generalizations. With the CVs, for example, the OOF rendering from the 40/1.4 is a little strange but I find the OOF rendering to be beautiful from the 28 Ultron, 35 Ultron, 50 Nokton, 75 Heliar, etc. So it really depends on the specific lens in question (and upon personal taste).

In general, the contrast ranking by maker (highest to lowest) tends to be: Zeiss ZM, Leica, then CV although, of course, there are exceptions. Lenses like the 21 Elmarit and 24 Elmarit have this great blend of reasonably strong micro-contrast with moderate macro contrast. Then there's the great, and widely ignored, CV 28/3.5 which is a high contrast, high res. lens very much in the modern style. That little jewel has been so ignored that its going out of production.

As I think most people here know, I go into these lens tests with my brand agnosticism in full force. There's a lot of myth and prejudice circulating about lenses that really isn't based on any kind of careful and/or rigorous comparison. I'm just trying to sort through all that to see what the real differences are; what spending "X" amount of dollars really buys, etc.

And, if there are indeed some inexpensive lenses that do very well on the M8, I want people to know about them so that they know that they *could* start working with the M8 without having to lay $10K plus on lenses. Many people avoid this system simply because they think that they have to own the most expensive lenses in order to use it well.

Cheers,

Sean

[sean_reid]

Originally Posted by rosuna

Maybe for a future article about "great out of production lenses on the M8" (Summicron 35mm, Summilux 75mm, Summilux 35mm Aspherical, Elmarit 28mm, etc.)? (just a suggestion).

Rubén

That's an interesting idea. I may do that later this year. Lot's to finish up first but I like the concept.

Cheers,

Sean

[billh]

Originally Posted by sean_reid

The "pop" is mostly contrast. The Leica is a slightly higher-contrast lens. It also shows slightly higher resolution on center. As a rule (with some exceptions) the CV lenses tend to be of moderate contrast. That makes for less initial "pop" but greater effective dynamic range with the M8 (if the subject lighting is contrasty). It comes down to taste, intentions, etc. Some prefer more contrast in their lenses, others prefer more shadow info. Neither is universally "better".

Cheers,

Sean

Hi Sean,

When I look at your tests I think I see the 28 Summicron as a lens with “greater effective dynamic range” and the 24mm f2.8 as one with more “pop”. Is this a correct assumption? I am asking because I am trying to decide between the 28 Summicron and the 24f2.8 for my 30% off purchase. I have the 28f2.8ASPH (which is very contrasty) and the 35f1.4ASPH. From looking at the MTF curves Leica publishes, it looks like the 28 Summicron is better at wider apertures than my 35 f1.4, and I can usually live with f2.0.

Is the image from the 24mm lens similar to that from the 50f1.4ASPH and APO75 f2.0?

By the way, I have a 75mm Summilux you can borrow to add to your test results.

Thanks,

Bill

[sean_reid]

Originally Posted by billh

Hi Sean,

When I look at your tests I think I see the 28 Summicron as a lens with “greater effective dynamic range” and the 24mm f2.8 as one with more “pop”. Is this a correct assumption? I am asking because I am trying to decide between the 28 Summicron and the 24f2.8 for my 30% off purchase. I have the 28f2.8ASPH (which is very contrasty) and the 35f1.4ASPH. From looking at the MTF curves Leica publishes, it looks like the 28 Summicron is better at wider apertures than my 35 f1.4, and I can usually live with f2.0.

Is the image from the 24mm lens similar to that from the 50f1.4ASPH and APO75 f2.0?

By the way, I have a 75mm Summilux you can borrow to add to your test results.

Thanks,

Bill

Hi Bill,

I'd have to actually test the two side by side to know for sure. The tests are almost always by focal length groups. The 24 Elmarit shows lower contrast than the Zeiss 25 and the 28 Summicron Asph. shows lower contrast, as you know, than the 28/2.8 Elm. Asph.

Without actually testing the lenses (of different focal lengths) side by side I can tell you that both the 24/2.8 and 28/2.0 seem to have contrast ranges that mesh well with the M8 in bright sunlight. My hunch is that the 24/2.8 is a bit lower in contrast but I don't dare say that without an actual side-by-side test.

Thanks very much for the offer of the test lens. Another forum member e-mailed to offer a loan of one as well and I thank you both very much. Once I get caught up with the articles, I will take one of you up on your generous offer.

Cheers,

Sean