Getting P&S low-light flash performance out of an M8.2?

[MikeMyers]

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I've got a question, but I'm not sure there even is an answer to it.... I'll ask anyway, just in case.

 

I would like a camera setup that can do some of the things I enjoy doing with a P&S Canon, but do it even better. Here's an example, in this case done with a Canon 870IS last night, while walking around Lincoln Road in South Beach:

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I know I "can" do this with my small Canon. Sometimes I like the results, but the camera is limited in so many ways. I switch back and forth between "flash", "no flash", and "slow flash" to get the results I want.

 

I know how to do all the above with my Nikon DSLR, but it's big, heavy, and noisy, and not really suitable for "candid" photos.

 

How would I do this with my Leica M8? As a test, last week I tried using my Nikon SB800 flash, and I just had a very frustrating experience. The exposure control was terrible. I remember trying this on the larger Leica flash at a Photo Expo in NYC, and my first impression was very positive. I've never had a chance to go out and do this, and I'm not sure if the small Leica flash would do the same thing or not.

 

 

A few questions - would either of the two Leica flash units be able to do what I want? I know I'll have to do the focusing manually, but would the flash take care of itself as with my Canon or Nikon (both with regular and "slow" flash)?

[wstotler]

A few questions - would either of the two Leica flash units be able to do what I want? I know I'll have to do the focusing manually, but would the flash take care of itself as with my Canon or Nikon (both with regular and "slow" flash)?

 

Give it a try with TTL mode using a Leica flash, ISO 320 or ISO 640 (if it's not too noisy for you), a slow shutter speed (1/125th-ish), and f/2, f/2.8, or f/4.

 

Off-camera flash (as with a Nikon sync cable) is recommended--although the scenes you showed looked like camera-mounted flash.

 

The SF-24D does an OK job in situations like the ones you were just shooting in--with a similar look. Clearly it's "flash as flash." (With some skillful manipulation, though, the flash can be used to provide a natural fill.) The SF-58 is capable of giving you a lot more light--but it's larger and heaver. That said, if I thought I was going to be needing flash to deal with large indoor areas (if I were going to shoot weddings, for example), I'd pick up an SF-58.

 

Folks will have other opinions about flash, but the TTL route has worked wonderfully for me and what I'm trying to do. And will work for what you just did, with only an SF-24D (and, on-camera).

 

Good luck!

Will

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[MikeMyers]

Give it a try with TTL mode using a Leica flash, ISO 320 or ISO 640 (if it's not too noisy for you), a slow shutter speed (1/125th-ish), and f/2, f/2.8, or f/4.

 

Off-camera flash (as with a Nikon sync cable) is recommended--although the scenes you showed looked like camera-mounted flash.

 

The SF-24D does an OK job in situations like the ones you were just shooting in--with a similar look. Clearly it's "flash as flash." (With some skillful manipulation, though, the flash can be used to provide a natural fill.) The SF-58 is capable of giving you a lot more light--but it's larger and heaver. That said, if I thought I was going to be needing flash to deal with large indoor areas (if I were going to shoot weddings, for example), I'd pick up an SF-58.

 

Folks will have other opinions about flash, but the TTL route has worked wonderfully for me and what I'm trying to do. And will work for what you just did, with only an SF-24D (and, on-camera).

 

Good luck!

Will

 

 

Thanks for the advice. Since entering this, I've re-read my earlier posts, and also did a search for what people here have been saying about doing flash photography with the M8. It's not very encouraging for me.

 

If I understand everything properly, the M8 in TTL mode with one of the newer Nikon flash units will do a very respectable job of capturing a nice image (as I now can do with my Nikons and Canons). For most flash photography, this is great. Where people have been complaining is with something I would have liked to have done last night so often - have the camera "mostly" take the photo by available light, but have the flash just fill in as needed. I read where this is difficult to do with the Leica flash. I don't (yet) own one of those flashes, so I can't test this.

 

I need to re-do my tests with the SB800 Nikon flash; maybe I didn't know enough about how to use it with the M8.

 

 

What I did today, was fire up my old Nikon SB24 flash, and try that with the M8.

* I set the camera to ISO 320

* I went into the flash settings on the M8 and set it to use down to 1/30th

* I also set it for "second curtain" flash

* I left the camera in "A" mode.

* I set the camera to f/5.6 for testing

I then set the SB24 as follows:

* mode set to "A"

* iso set to 320

* aperture set to f/5.6

* top left slide switch set to "REAR" (instead of NORMAL)

 

I then took a series of shots, with the flash mounted on the camera. Technically, the camera and flash worked just fine. The photos came out just as I expected. Between the camera and the flash, the exposure looked very reasonable. I'd say that for taking "snapshots" this setup was very usable for me.

 

 

 

What I haven't figured out how to do yet though, is to emulate what I do to capture natural looking photos at night. With my Nikon DSLR cameras, I'll use the built in meter to figure out a good exposure based only on "natural light". I'll then set the camera to that setting. Were I to take a photo with these settings, I'd get a reasonably well exposed image. However, this is when I put the flash on the camera, and use "TTL" to control the flash. The camera is forced to use "my" settings because it's in Manual mode, so the camera tells the flash to only put out a wee bit of light. I usually get just what I want.

 

THAT is what I can't figure out how to do (or even if even can be done) using the Nikon flashes on my M8. Since I can't use TTL, I guess I need to see if there is a way to do what I've been doing, but to just reduce the light output of the flash.

[ho_co]

As you say, Nikon's and Leica's flash automation are completely different.

 

The kind of "slow synch" or "dragging the shutter" fill you're looking for can be done only with a dedicated flash unit--SF24, SF58 or Metz so far as I'm aware.

 

There'll be others here who can give you more specific information. I'm not good with flash.

[MikeMyers]

As you say, Nikon's and Leica's flash automation are completely different.

 

The kind of "slow synch" or "dragging the shutter" fill you're looking for can be done only with a dedicated flash unit--SF24, SF58 or Metz so far as I'm aware.

 

There'll be others here who can give you more specific information. I'm not good with flash.

 

 

I hope you're right, but the searches I did only found people saying how frustrating it was to get this to work properly. Maybe I just looked at the wrong links - I will check again.

 

About the only thing I've found with my testing that works nicely, is to set the shutter speed dial to the "flash" setting, then put the SB24 on the M8, using the same settings for each (for me, that was ISO 320, f/5.6, flash set to A-mode, "normal"). Forgetting ugly on-camera flash looks, the photos came out technically fine.

 

My setup is not yet emulating my Canon P&S set in "night snapshot" mode, but maybe there are some other tricks I have yet to find.

[Luke_Miller]

The only way I know is to lie to the flash unit like I had to in my medium format film days. Meter the scene, set shutter speed/aperture for the ambient light, set the flash to "Auto", and then set aperture on the flash to one stop larger than the setting on the lens. The flash's auto-thyrister mode will then underexpose the scene by a stop which is normally about right. Adjust to taste (couldn't do that with the film body).

[ho_co]

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... Maybe I just looked at the wrong links - I will check again....

No, don't bother to check again. Must be my error.

 

When the M8 came out, LFI had two issues on using it with flash, and one of the points made was how well and how simply the SF24 worked as fill. (At that time, there was no SF58.) The magazine also mentioned that the Metz units offered more options than the SF24 (bounce and tilt, for example, and more power); but went on to say that not all the features that Metz implemented for other brands were implemented for Leica.

 

Reaction to the article was fairly negative on the Forum, but I remember Mark Norton remarking that about the only thing the SF24 and M8 did well together was fill-flash.

 

Perhaps that didn't include 'dragging the shutter.' It's been quite a while, and as I said above, I've never been happy with using flash--so I doubtless misremember.

 

If I understand correctly, the only flash on the market that does everything the M8 and M9 do is the SF58. It's quite powerful and relatively versatile, but--again, if I understand correctly--hasn't the capability of Nikon's CLS. Don't know about comparing it to Canon.

 

So your route of setting the shutter for the right exposure, but slower than 'normal,' and then setting the flash for Auto is probably best. And to do that, any flash with an "Auto" setting should do.

 

But put my recommendations aside, because my experience hasn't been in trying to do what you're doing, and hasn't been all that successful anyway.

 

 

You know, Mike, come to think of it--for what you're doing, I'd say you're doing fine with the Canon digicam. It would certainly be interesting to work out the logistics of doing the same on the M--but maybe not worth the effort, since you've got a working alternative?

Edited November 2, 2010 by ho_co

[MikeMyers]

Thanks for the feedback. I wish I had both of the Leica flash units to try out for myself, but that's not likely to happen until when/if I find out that they'll do what I want.

 

After a couple of hours of testing, and trying different ideas, I think your final suggestion is what I may need to do. My Canon P&S (a few hundred $$ worth of camera) does just about everything I want "almost well enough", and all it takes is selecting "night snapshot". My D3 can do just as well with an SB800 flash, if I set the camera manually and let the software control the flash. I guess software is the key here.

 

Leica.... I'm glad I figured out how to use the SB24 with the M8; the SB24 hasn't been used in what, eight years... maybe much longer. I don't like "flash pictures" but sometimes I need to do it, and it's nice now to know how. But, even though I think I know how to get the results I want, using the Leica it just isn't possible. Unless I "cheat" with the ISO or something, there seems to be no way to reliably tell the flash to do everything it wants to do, but use less power.

 

 

Bottom line - I got the photos I wanted last night (but for every photo I liked, I had five to ten that were junk). Had I brought my DSLR, I would have done just fine using my trick to emulate "night snapshot", setting the camera manually. I probably would have bumped the ISO up to 6000 or something, which means I wouldn't have tossed out so many pictures because they were blurry.... With the Leica..... Some of the photos I took would have come out fine, and others I don't think I'd have captured at all.

 

My only real frustration now, is that I can't figure out a way to get my M8 to do something that's so easy on a P&S. I think it all comes down to rangefinder vs P&S, computer circuitry or the lack of same, and no way of controlling the flash to make it emulate the P&S flash in night snapshot mode.

[wstotler]

Glad you got to a decent place. I've been freehanding the flash and have been pretty happy with the results. Not happy about the SF24D flash on camera--just don't like the look of camera-mounted flash overall.

 

Cheers!

Will

[jaapv]

Actually the M8 and SF 58 do a pretty good job - and the SF24D is excellent for fill flash. Having said that the old Metz MZ 4 with a SCA 3502M5 adapter I have, used on "A" with the M8/9 on manual is the best combo of all in my experience.

[MikeMyers]

Actually the M8 and SF 58 do a pretty good job - and the SF24D is excellent for fill flash. Having said that the old Metz MZ 4 with a SCA 3502M5 adapter I have, used on "A" with the M8/9 on manual is the best combo of all in my experience.

 

 

Jaap, can you please explain why that Metz flash is your favorite?

 

I'm not sure if you looked over the image gallery I posted. If so, would any of these flashes on an M8 have been able to accomplish what I was after?

[jaapv]

because it gives me the least "flash-like"results. this is with simple on camera flash set to half-bounce. Head to 45 degrees.

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Edited November 10, 2010 by jaapv

[MikeMyers]

Jaapv, very nice, and yes, it does not look like the photos that obviously were done with a flash on camera.

 

Hmm, after reading what you wrote, there is no reason my old SB24 shouldn't do the same thing. I've even found my old connection cord if I wanted to use it for off-camera flash.

 

 

 

Did you use any kind of automated setup on the flash, or was everything set to Manual?