M8 shutter fault - get Leica to repair it for free

[LourensJ]

You have not shared much information yet. Till now it's only one side of the story...

[stunsworth]

Originally Posted by PhotoWebb.co.uk

The M8 is buggy - it's not the slick high quality product that I had the right to expect.

The M8 has been an extremely imperfect product, just look at it's history. It clearly was not tested properly before being released

...if I had been responsible for the testing of this camera I would be ashamed. So many bugs slipped through Leica's quality assurance process it's quite staggering

The fact that there are pages and pages of webspace dedicated to 'M8 issues' and that Leica themselves had to communicate a whole swathe of problems with the camera after release is proof enough that they are not testing properly. I just happen to have the issue of LFI where they dedicated the whole issue to M8 problems

So why in the name of heaven did you choose to buy one, and a used one with a limited warranty at that?

I have a very strong sense that you are being wise after the event.

[stunsworth]

Originally Posted by PhotoWebb.co.uk

Why shouldn't people talk about the problems they are experiencing?

No reason at all. But it's another thing to see a personal problem as a generic failing. Especially when there is no hard evidence to back up such a claim.

[pop]

Originally Posted by PhotoWebb.co.uk

The M8 is buggy - it's not the slick high quality product that I had the right to expect. ... The M8 has been an extremely imperfect product, just look at it's history. ... as has been evidenced by the countless problems that have plagued it since it was released. ... The fact that there are pages and pages of webspace dedicated to 'M8 issues' and that Leica themselves had to communicate a whole swathe of problems with the camera after release is proof enough that they are not testing properly. I just happen to have the issue of LFI where they dedicated the whole issue to M8 problems

(emphasis is mine)

According to you, the internet abounds with evidence of swathes of bothersome problems which clearly render the camera unreliable and unfit for any particular purpose.

Yet you claim the right to expect it to be a slick high quality product.

We can commiserate with your bad luck in buying a second hand camera which turned out not to be a source of constant joy, and I certainly do so.

However, all that information about the M8 being an unreliable product must have been on the web long before you bought yours. You did not do your homework properly. Wipe your chin.

[bill]

Originally Posted by PhotoWebb.co.uk

Just out of interest for those who are not happy about this type of issue being discussed on an internet forum.

What purpose do you think a forum like this should perform? Should we only be allowed to say things like:
I love my M8
Leica make the best cameras in the world
Leica lenses are amongst the finest made

That would certainly seem to be the attitude of some of the people on here. The whole point in an internet forum is so that people can share information on a specific subject, in this case Leica cameras. Why shouldn't people talk about the problems they are experiencing?

The funny thing is, those that seem to be opposed to me sharing this information are taking part!

Any remaining vestige of sympathy has now evaporated.

I do not own an M8. Nothing on God's good Earth would possess me to part with good money for one. I regard it as an evolutionary dead-end and have been one of it's sternest critics since it's introduction. For the most part, those who have one will disagree with me, and that is entirely their right. But I do not criticise Leica for it's introduction, nor do I crucify them for it's shortcomings. You have bought a second-hand example, with no knowledge of it's past handling treatment. You had every opportunity to research the camera before buying it yet still you went ahead with your purchase.

This forum exists for many reasons, both social and practical. What it does not exist for, IMO, is to provide aggrieved consumers with a platform to direct their misplaced ire at the manufacturer when - as has been pointed out ad nauseam - your statutory rights as a consumer potentially give you a means of redress against the dealer.

This emptor clearly did not caveat...

[wolfloid]

I'm sorry , but it has to be said how it is. Leica should be prevented by law from claiming this sort of marketing bullshit (below) or they should pay up when there is a 'rare' exception and their 'lifetime' product fails.

""Not many things last a lifetime. A Leica M often lasts longer

Anyone taking photographs is normally at the heart of life. In the heat or cold, in the rain or dust. The M needs to be durable, reliable and robust under all conceivable conditions. The question of durability is always a top priority in the development of a new M model. This is why only premium materials are used for its body : brass for the top and base plate and a high-strength magnesium alloy for the chassis. The digital technology components are also carefully selected to with- stand years of use. Sophisticated production techniques and painstaking assembly guarantee decades of reliable operation, allowing photog- raphers to enjoy their Leica M for as long as possible. For a lifetime in fact, often even by the next generation."

How they can write this shit and then not guarantee the camera against damage from 'rain or dust' is a travesty. The camera isn't even sealed against them, and as soon as you've paid your money and had problems they tell you shouldn't use your camera in 'rain or dust'. Don't you see the audacity in this? The German's have a word for it: 'Frechheit'.

I am a Leica fan and love the ergonomics of the M's, BUT, if they make the above claims in order to seduce buyers, then they have to live up to their claims or stop spouting in all their advertising. It breaks all advertising standards.

Fawning sycophancy and customer loyalty in the face of plenty of evidence of failures does no one any good. Ganging up verbally on someone who wants to take action against this is just craven.
_________________

[pop]

Originally Posted by wolfloid

How they can write this shit and then not guarantee the camera against damage from 'rain or dust' is a travesty.

This thread being of some length, I did not realise that the camera has failed because it had rained on the shutter.

Well, anyway:

B.P.: The product is a marvel of today's technology because the adverts say so.
A.P.: The product stinks and is an embarassment to Western Civilisation because the Internet says so.

(B.P.: Before Purchase; A.P.: After Purchase)

[stunsworth]

Originally Posted by wolfloid

I'm sorry , but it has to be said how it is. Leica should be prevented by law from claiming this sort of marketing bullshit (below) or they should pay up when there is a 'rare' exception and their 'lifetime' product fails.

""Not many things last a lifetime. A Leica M often lasts longer

You need to understand what the word "often" means in the context of that quote. If totally transforms what is being said compared to if it had been omitted.

More over they are not specifying a particular model of M, and they do not offer a numerical definition of "often". Welcome to the world of advertising.

[UliWer]

Originally Posted by stunsworth

... Welcome to the world of advertising.

Though the campaigners here are not advertising, they just tell the truth.

I am sure the campaigners will be able to proof that the average M8 has not yet exceeded the average user's lifetime. This alone gives them a guarantee for their ultimate success at any court in the world. They took legal advise. They cannot be wrong. They would even give anybody who asked for it unlimited warranty on their promisses.

[bill]

Originally Posted by wolfloid

marketing bullshit

Welcome to the real world. That's the world in which people treat advertising puff as just that.

Originally Posted by wolfloid

It breaks all advertising standards.

Tell us, do, exactly which standards it breaks? The M8 has been out for a good few years now - so where are all the judgements against Leica for the breach of these standards?

Originally Posted by wolfloid

Fawning sycophancy and customer loyalty in the face of plenty of evidence of failures does no one any good. Ganging up verbally on someone who wants to take action against this is just craven.

I'm not seeing anyone around here claiming Leica is either infallible or perfect; far from it. What I am seeing is a disappointed man on a mission against the softest target he thinks he can pick, trying to rabble-rouse others in support of his "case".

Regards,

Bill

[delander]

Well there is an advertinsing standards agency so it is not a complete free for all. I doubt that the ASA is aware of Leica's marketing pronouncements

I doubt that with the digtal Ms even the word 'often' can be used in a reasonable sense.

Jeff

[lct]

Originally Posted by UliWer

...They took legal advise...

Which gives some weight to Leica's statements when they « guarantee decades of reliable operation »… Not 2 years, not 10,000 actuations, decades!

Still no response from Leica. I chased yesterday.

[wattsy]

The OP's 'case' isn't without merit. All the stuff about ads promising "lifetime guarantees" is a total red herring as is the issue of the camera being second hand (my understanding of the Sale of Goods Act is that it doesn't distinguish between new and used). Any 'reasonable' person would assume that a camera designed for professional usage and sold as a professional piece of kit should be expected to longer last than the OP's example without requiring a repair costing around 40% of the camera's value (as an aside, Canon charge around £200 to replace a shutter in their flagship 1DS body). There is also enough anecdotal evidence to suggest that shutter reliability is not one of the strong points of this camera.

What I don't understand is why the OP had a kind of online hissy fit - threatening legal action, publishing stuff on his blog, blah blah - before he'd even politely (in private) asked Leica if they would consider fixing it for free (or at a discount to the standard price). Talk about putting the cart before the horse (or the arse before the face). Bizarre.

Going off topic but I also cannot understand why a poster in this thread is banging on about owning a Porsche Cayenne without any sense of embarrassment?


I just deleted the last line since it is rude, unsupported and uncalled for. Stuart Nordheimer

[wolfloid]

You need to understand what the word "often" means in the context of that quote. If totally transforms what is being said compared to if it had been omitted.

More over they are not specifying a particular model of M, and they do not offer a numerical definition of "often". Welcome to the world of advertising.

They are claiming that it 'often' lasts longer than a lifetime. That they are using this in the context of selling M8's is risable and shameful. There is stretching the truth and then there is lying. It is deliberately misleading. There are many Leicas - according to the LFI issue on M8 problems that aren't getting past the the first few months, some are even dead from the box. I'm no advertising standards lawyer and wouldn't want to take a penalising route against Leica, but if they are going to serve up this mendacious nonsense, then they should live up to it and repair cameras for free when such basic things as shutters fail after only a few years.

[bill]

This clearly means a lot to you.

Off you go then - report them to the ASA, or your local equivalent.

Regards,

Bill

[Julian Thompson]

[quote] Going off topic but I also cannot understand why a poster in this thread is banging on about owning a Porsche Cayenne without any sense of embarrassment? [Close quote] I deleted the last line since it is rude, unsupported and uncalled for. Stuart Nordheimer

I happen to like my car apart from its rusty door.

But keep this on topic and keep your insults to yourself - you're supposed to be agreeing or disagreeing with the OP, not comparing other posters to drug dealers.

[Julian Thompson]

Bill you're wasting your time mate, much as I enjoy your posts.

[AlanG]

Regardless of the warranty/durability issue...

Is 700 Euros a reasonable price for replacing a basic Copal shutter? Let's say the shutter cost 200 Euros. (I bet the part costs Leica less than this.) Does labor and overhead cost 500 Euros or is there a lot of profit in making these repairs? And if the camera's design makes it especially difficult to do this replacement, why is it designed that way?

Why isn't Leica concerned that this price will turn off buyers? Obviously with prices this high, many people won't find an M8 worth repairing before long. This will also affect resale value.

This place seems to have reasonable prices for DSLR repairs but doesn't list Leicas other than a few p&s models:

Nikon DSLR D3 Camera Repair

note - I've never used this company and don't know if the prices they list are truly accurate.

[ArtZ]

Originally Posted by AlanG

Regardless of the warranty/durability issue...

Is 700 Euros a reasonable price for replacing a basic Copal shutter? Let's say the shutter cost 200 Euros. (I bet the part costs Leica less than this.) Does labor and overhead cost 500 Euros or is there a lot of profit in making these repairs? And if the camera's design makes it especially difficult to do this replacement, why is it designed that way?

Why isn't Leica concerned that this price will turn off buyers? Obviously with prices this high, many people won't find an M8 worth repairing before long. This will also affect resale value.

This place seems to have reasonable prices for DSLR repairs but doesn't list Leicas other than a few p&s models:

Nikon DSLR D3 Camera Repair

note - I've never used this company and don't know if the prices they list are truly accurate.

Alan,

I checked your link and look what I got for the Nikon D3

Nikon DSLR D3 Shutter is stuck or not functioning Repair for $102.49

This quote includes parts and labor costs... so 700 € seems to be a bit over priced.

Cheers
.