Potential new owner in need of some advice !

[MacGreg]

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Hello all !

 

The last few days I am researching a lot , in order to get as much information as I can about M bodies and lenses. I am between an M4(silver) and M6(black), sold in a local -well known- store. I wish I could easily make up my mind. I read a lot ... stuff like, the M6 rangefinder might be prone to flare and that the M4 was one of the last "classic" Leicas made. Well, I will be honest ... I shoot film for quite a long time, I do understand exposure. When I shoot out in the streets with my X100, the ISO is set and I control aperture and speed and I must say that I am quite good at this. Film photography has helped a lot ! So, with that in mind I am not desperate about having a meter ... but, I do like a black M6, if only money were not an issue, as it sells for almost twice as the M4 !! But still haven't decided ... so, any more advice on the subject is most welcome !

 

So, now that my little "confession" is over, this is what really troubles me !! The lenses ...

I would love to go for a Color Skopar, but this can't happen right now. So, I was thinking about a couple of Russian lenses, like the Jupiter 12 35/2.8 and the Jupiter 8 50/2 . They are quite affordable and a good starting point I think.

 

I just keep wondering if there will be any problems with these two on an M4 or M6 ... would you recommend these lenses ? And if yes, I still need advice about the adapter. I have found a couple on ebay that look pretty decent. Am I going to have any issues with Russian lenses ? I have read some things about them not focusing properly and if so, is it easy to get that fixed ?

 

I am sorry if all these are a lot, but I am about to take a major step with acquiring my first Leica and I would like to be as much prepared as possible !!

 

Any advice would be much appreciated.

[earleygallery]

Welcome.

 

You will get a lot of opinions and between them I'm sure you will have suggestions to my an M2 or an M3 or an M4 or an M4-2, or an M4-P, or an M5, or an M6, or an M7 or a CL....

 

Basically any film M will be a good choice. There are a couple of issues with the M6 - the rangefinder can flare in some situations and some bodies suffer from a reaction of the base metal which makes the finish 'bubble'.

 

I think I would personally go for the M4 out of those two choices and spend the money I didn't spend on the M6 on lens/es.

 

The Jupiters can be excellent, I have a Jupiter 12 which is amazingly sharp and contrasty. But they are very variable apparently. I just bought a Kiev which also has the Jupiter 12 - it will be interesting to see if that is as good as the other one!

 

My advice though would be to look for a 50mm Elmar f3.5, or the f2.8. They are both fine Leica lenses and as they collapse it makes for a great 'carry around' combination.

 

That said the Skopar lenses are also excellent. Again some people say they've had bad versions, but mine have been absolutely perfect. The 35mm Skopar is particularly nice.

 

One more piece of advice - buy your first M body from a dealer who will give you a warranty of at least 3 months. If you buy one privately from an unknown seller you could find yourself having to pay for a service which can be very expensive.

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[pgk]

I do like a black M6, if only money were not an issue, as it sells for almost twice as the M4!

You will get lots of varying advice on this for sure but here's mine FWIW.

 

Remember that although there is a significant age difference between these two cameras, both are actually relatively old. You can check the actual dates from the wiki on this forum but the M4 is likely to be at least 40 years old. So at some point a service (CLA) will be advisable on either camera. Of the two, the M4 is regarded by many as the last 'classically' built camera and it has differences in build compared to the M6, such as brass gears instead of steel ones - you will read much about such differences but the probability is that in practical usage there will be little that will cause any problems.

 

Of the two I'd probably go for the M4 but this is a purely personal choice (and I do have a very battered black chrome M4 - my only film camera now - still undergoing major surgery including a replacement body shell as it had a lot of epoxy repairs) and because it would save money which could be used for a CLA or towards lenses. And it is the lenses which dictate the image so I'd agree with the last post and suggest that you look for an Elmar or other relatively cheap Leica lens if you can - cosmetics and small optical flaws will not affect the photos - I have a 'thin' Tele-Elmar 90mm which cost under £100 which produces excellent images despite its battered appearance and some marks to the optics.

 

Whatever you get I am sure that you will enjoy using it.

[TomB_tx]

I have both M4 & M6 - each bought new when they first came out. As has been said, both are fine cameras, as are the other M models, and whichever I am using I'd say is my favorite. The M6 finder is just a bit more finicky than the M4 to position of your eye, but both work fine. Choose based on your budget and how you value the convenience of the nice M6 meter. I also have the clip-on MR-4 meter for the M4, which is convenient and can be added when budget allows. Enjoy whichever you get - either is a good decision.

[MacGreg]

I have both M4 & M6

 

How do the viewfinders compare ? Is there a significant difference ?

[250swb]

I think you simply need the most versatile camera as your first Leica, and if or when you get your own entrenched ideas based on actual user knowledge then is the time to start refining your criteria. As such the M6 would be the most versatile. It gives you all the available frame lines so you can experiment with alternative lenses and you get a meter. Yes I know there are workarounds with the M4 for more choice with alternative lenses by using accessory viewfinders, and you can get a Leicameter to fit the M4, but do you really need all that hassle and even bigger learning curve as a new user? Keep it simple.

 

Steve

[pico]

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How do the viewfinders compare ? Is there a significant difference ?

 

The M4 does not have frame lines for the 75mm. The M4-P does. The M6 was available with a .85 finder. The M6TTL was offered with .85 and .58. The M4 has .72.

 

Other considerations, if one cares for a motor wind or Abrhamsson Rapidwinder or Leicavit he is limited to M6, M4-P or the horribly expensive, collectible M4-M.

 

Russian lenses are, to me, merely expensive body caps.

[MacGreg]

Thanks for all your views guys !

 

Well, the only focal lengths that interest me are the 35(primarily) and the 50. I am also not interested in using a flash or any other accessory.

 

So, with these in mind I am going towards the M4 I guess. I still haven't stopped reading, i am spending so much time on this and I am missing all the fun !! I should go and get that camera and start using it as I should I know ...

 

What @pico said is quite harsh about the russian lenses !!! Are they so much out of the question ?

[Frase]

If I was on a budget I would go with a m2 and a canon 35 f2, seems strange to me anyway to spend all that money on a leica body and use Russian lenses when the best thing about a leica is the lenses. Or you could go Konica hexar and a 50mm hexar cheaper than a m6 body without a lens. Seems everybody on the Internet talks about the flare with the m6 viewfinder I've never had any problems with it, if you want to see a lot of flare you should try a Nikon rangefinder!

[Susie]

Hi,

 

Although I don't have an M4 I do have an M3, M2 and an M6.

 

Yes, the earlier M's do have a certain tactile build quality about them, but since getting my M6 (black, non TTL 0.72 viewfinder) new in 1996 it has always been my choice when travelling. I have never knowingly experienced the viewfinder flare that is often mentioned, but just use the camera as I find it. The built in meter is much more convenient than having an MR on the top, or a separate meter. So I would recomend the M6 - but then you did expect to get a different sugestion from every responder didn't you?!

 

You mentioned your lens focal length preferences, so unless you must have large aperture lenses, get a 50mm Elmar and a 35mm Summaron (either f/3.5 or f/2.8 for either) to go with the M6. Both are excellent lenses and not too dear, the 3.5's being cheaper.

 

Start with a good camera body and simple lenses, then as you start to love the M cameras you'll begin to suffer from GAS, like the rest of us!

 

Susie

[payasam]

The Jupiter lenses are optically quite respectable, being copies of Zeiss designs, but on Leicas they do not focus properly at near distances and large apertures. I have had this experience with the J-3, J-8 and J-9. The mis-match can be corrected, as it was with my J-3 and J-9. The J-12 has a shorter focal length and works well.

[pico]

What @pico said is quite harsh about the russian lenses !!! Are they so much out of the question ?

 

Keep in mind that I got the four Leica lenses I use very long ago, and I am not at all interested in cheap, variable quality lenses today. What I have I will use to the end of my time.

 

Feel free to experiment with Russian lenses. They are inexpensive enough to discard if not satisfactory. There is a person on this group who corrects lens focusing using micro-thin brass tape. Perhaps he will intervene.

 

Hang in there!

.

[payasam]

I too have the lenses I shall need for as long as I am able to use them. But I have also had lenses made in the USSR and I respect their performance.

[earleygallery]

Keep in mind that I got the four Leica lenses I use very long ago, and I am not at all interested in cheap, variable quality lenses today. What I have I will use to the end of my time.

 

Feel free to experiment with Russian lenses. They are inexpensive enough to discard if not satisfactory. There is a person on this group who corrects lens focusing using micro-thin brass tape. Perhaps he will intervene.

 

Hang in there!

.

 

They can be very good, as good as you could ever need in fact. Price isn't the issue at all, it's finding the gems!

[Nr90]

I would get the M6 and consider something like the voigtlander 1.4 35mm.

It is not the very greatest lens, but supposed to be quite good on film. The speed is nice to have on film imo.

Steve huff said he would use it with film over the (more expensive) voigtlander 1.2 nokton II. It's nice and small as well.

(see the last comment on http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2011/12/02/voigtlander-nokton-35-1-2-aspherical-ii-lens-review-on-the-leica-m9/ )

 

To me having a build in meter is just convenient. I also like the 28mm framelines.

The M6 patch does flare from time to time, but it is not a huge issue to me.

 

I use an M2, M3, M6 and M8. The M6 is my favourite.

[TomB_tx]

I would get the M6 and consider something like the voigtlander 1.4 35mm.

It is not the very greatest lens, but supposed to be quite good on film. The speed is nice to have on film imo.

Steve huff said he would use it with film over the (more expensive) voigtlander 1.2 nokton II. It's nice and small as well.

 

I agree. I've used the 1.4 35 MC Nokton often on my M6, both indoors in dim light, and for scenics (Grand Canyon for example), and it's a great handling combination that gave nice results. Price of the lens has nearly doubled since I got mine, but it's still a bargain, and often available used.

[Jeff S]

Everyone has an opinion…lots more via search. If you throw an M2 into the mix, for instance, consider these thoughts….

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/film-forum/132826-m2-m4-m6.html

 

So much is personal that it would really help if the local dealer let you try out the 2 you're considering, at least for VF magnification/contrast and comfort, frame line options and distance optimization, smoothness of operation, etc. Any records on servicing would also be helpful.

 

If you're worried about VF flare, note that the M6 VF can be upgraded to the MP finder, which can be cost effective if you're simultaneously going to get a CLA anyway at some point.

 

And get a warranty.

 

Jeff

[MacGreg]

Wow .... so manny things to consider !!!

 

I will be honest, I was not never very fond of a collapsible Elmar but the more I read and see sample images the more I am into them. And also the price ... from a quick look on eBay I have found a couple of Elmars 5cm at a very good price, even the f2.8 at around 200euros which is a pretty normal price.

 

As for the body, I still haven't made up my mind. The good thing is that the dealer from whom I consider getting it, is offering a warranty so that's a plus. I will have a close look at them and make up my mind. I really want the M6 for that gorgeous black colour and the M4 for the "old school" aesthetics ... I know I can't have them both. So ...

[tookaphotoof]

Personally, I'd say, if you can't afford both and you don't really need metering get the M4.

Have an M6 and MP myself and find the metering makes me insecure. Too nervous for my liking. Removed the batteries and use a small lightmeter if I don't trust myself in a situation.

Spend the saved money on a lens!

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Hallo,

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[MacGreg]

Spend the saved money on a lens!

 

A very tempting option, indeed.