Which M4?

[Pangur Ban]

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I'm now contemplating adding an M4 to my set of film Leica cameras but am a bit perplexed about which M4 to plump for: M4, M4P or M4-2.

 

Is there much difference between them, apart from aesthetics?

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Pangur Ban,

 

The 3 versions of the M4 that you have chosen are actually quite different as well as quite similar at the same time. If you could explain what is lacking with the cameras you already have or what you would like to do that you currently cannot do or would like to do in a different manner it might be easier to decide which of the cameras in question might best suit your purposes.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

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[pico]

I'm now contemplating adding an M4 to my set of film Leica cameras but am a bit perplexed about which M4 to plump for: M4, M4P or M4-2.

 

Yes, I know a bit from my experience of using many M4s and variations through professional and casual use.

 

The M4 is a great camera. Rugged, reliable, and has a great feel.

 

The M4-P has 75mm frame lines which is very useful to me, but not so for others who do not use the 75mm. Another plus for the M4-P is that it accepts the Abrahamsson Rapid Winder, and motor winds; the standard M4 does not. I know nothing about the M4-2 because I never owned one.

 

If you ever want a never used black paint M4, contact me. The price will stop your heart.

.

[gberger]

I had an M4 for years (until the M6 was a well-established replacement.) I sent it to Leica and had the M2 frame lines installed.

 

As pico said, it's a great camera, I wish I still had mine, but I can't claw it away from my Granddaughter. She uses it with a rigid 50mm Chron for B&W

[luigi bertolotti]

The M4 is a classic-built M, rock solid, reliable in use (has been MY Leica from 1988 to half 2007... bought used, never restored, always perfect from tropical environments to Mont Blanc summit).

The M4-2 was a Canadian rebirth which, apart the small design changes, introduced new manufacturing methodogies... of course targeted to cost reduction (and M4-P is its evolution) : I cannot absolutely say that this means a lower reliability (personally, I haven't had any of the two models) but from some posts there seems to be a certain mood towards this feel... let's say that is probable that a M4-2 or P is a camera that is better to keep and use with a certain care... M 4 is still of the breed of cameras intended and engineered for professionals who used them around the world , in any situations and treating it not as a baby...

[250swb]

It is the M4-2 that has a reputation for unreliability, but the M4-P is a different animal altogether. The internal mechanism of the M4-P was beefed up to take a motor which makes it over engineered for general use and with the frame lines means it is the most versatile of the M4 lineage. A well serviced M4-P is as smooth and refined to use as any other Leica M body but I do suspect that in their day Leica weren't building them to the same high standard that a specialist repairer can nowadays restore them to.

 

Steve

[MarkP]

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I had also been contemplating one for some time but bought an M7 first as I find the light meter and aperture-priority exposure very useful. An M4 iteration would be a nice companion - I don't really want/need an MP or M-A.

 

I use 75mm lenses so the M4-P would be more versatile, and I'm not sure that in real use any other difference in construction would be discernible. But then again, an M4 is an M4.

 

Indecision indecision indecision, not that it stopped me buying an Contax in the meantime. T3:rolleyes:

Edited February 13, 2015 by MarkP

[Pangur Ban]

If you could explain what is lacking with the cameras you already have or what you would like to do that you currently cannot do or would like to do in a different manner it might be easier to decide which of the cameras in question might best suit your purposes.

 

A fair question but the reason for purchase is more curiosity - I don't expect it'll do anything different from other cameras I own, so I'm not looking to fill a functionality gap.

[Pangur Ban]

It is the M4-2 that has a reputation for unreliability, but the M4-P is a different animal altogether. The internal mechanism of the M4-P was beefed up to take a motor which makes it over engineered for general use and with the frame lines means it is the most versatile of the M4 lineage. A well serviced M4-P is as smooth and refined to use as any other Leica M body but I do suspect that in their day Leica weren't building them to the same high standard that a specialist repairer can nowadays restore them to.

 

Steve

 

Thanks, that's helpful.

 

As my M3, M2 and MP are chrome, I think I'd like a black one so as my budget won't quite stretch to a black M4, I think I'll look around for a suitable M4-P.

 

My M5 and M8 are black, but I don't have a conventional black film M.

[andym911]

Indeed an excellent camera..it is the favourite of my M film cameras.

 

here she is:)

 

good luck

andy

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[bocaburger]

Around 1970 I started with an M4 then added a second. Over the years I've had every other model at one time or another, but hung onto those 2 M4's to this day even though I haven't shot film in a while. All you really need to do is hold and work an M4-2 or M4-P alongside an original M4 for 15-20 seconds to appreciate how much higher a standard the M4 was built to. Not saying the -2 and -P are poorly built, not at all, just not to the same level as an M4.

 

One thing with the later M4-P is they have the same issue as the M6 with the rangefinder patch whiting out at certain angles. Some people find it more annoying than others, and it can be rectified with a retrofit, although it's not cheap.

 

M4-2 and M4-P both have hot shoes if you use flash that doesn't have a PC cord, although a hot shoe can be retrofitted to an M4 at some cost, or buy a cheap adapter for the cold shoe.

[FredR]

...the rangefinder...can be rectified with a retrofit, although it's not cheap.

Not too bad: US$250 at DAG. I just had it done to my M6TTL 0.85.

 

Fred

Edited February 15, 2015 by FredR

[250swb]

Not too bad: US$250 at DAG. I just had it done to my M6TTL 0.85.

 

Fred

 

But a small change in eye position in the viewfinder, or a tiny movement to one side or another can often save $250. This is how photographers have managed to use the M4-P and M6 in the harshest conditions and in war zones without resorting to complaining about it on LUF. I know it can be infuriating but in times of necessity it isn't impossible to work around it, and in times of necessity you hardly recognise what you've done anyway, so it doesn't register as a problem.

 

Steve

[colint544]

I suppose there might come a time, when you've moved your eye so many times (saving $250 each time), that the price of the viewfinder upgrade becomes worth the one-off cost. Especially if you've decided that the camera is your companion for life. And you use it a lot.

[A miller]

Indecision indecision indecision, not that it stopped me buying an Contax in the meantime. T3:rolleyes:

Interesting, choice Mark. I'll bet you probably also considered the Minolta TC-1 and Ricoh GR1

 

Of these (and a few others), I ended up with the Ricoh GR1v as my "always in my pocket" camera. I don't think the autofocus works as it should, but otherwise it is a neat tool.

 

We should compare notes one day...

 

As for the OP's question, unless a few hundred bucks is an issue, I'd go for an M4, as it would make me feel the best knowling that I have a German made camera without any corners cut. It is, after all, mostly emotional as they are all great tools and will take the same photos.

[andym911]

The TC 1 is indeed a gem of a camera..

Had one since many years and is the best of the best IMO in terms of quality, usability, pocketability and a just gorgeous lens....

Not easy to find but an adorable underestimated camera.

 

Andy

[Guest]

The TC 1 is indeed a gem of a camera..

Had one since many years and is the best of the best IMO in terms of quality, usability, pocketability and a just gorgeous lens....

Not easy to find but an adorable underestimated camera.

 

Andy

 

Lucky you, since you did not have to look for a repair. Sold my TC 1 as "defekt" at a substantial loss (after 10 years of use, though).

 

T3 - perfect decision imo, Mark

 

The original T is not a battery guzzler, since it has MF and manual film transport, instead of the AF and the built-in winder. But the T3 lens is slightly even better than the one in the T.

 

Anders Petersen uses nothing else than the T3. De_gustibus_non_est_disputandum but he shows what can be done with an...

analogue equivallent of a top-notch mobile phone built ca. 2012-2013.

[andym911]

Agree the T3 is also superb.. ( have 2 of them)

Just the tc1 was and is more my camera...

Both have stunning optics, which at the end of the day is very relevant.

 

Andy

[Pangur Ban]

As for the OP's question, unless a few hundred bucks is an issue, I'd go for an M4, as it would make me feel the best knowling that I have a German made camera without any corners cut. It is, after all, mostly emotional as they are all great tools and will take the same photos.

 

My M2, M5, MP (and M8) are all German made so I think I'm ok for that side of things (plus an old Voigtlander and a Rolleiflex or two).

 

My M3 is a Canadian-made camera and I've always got on well with that (it was the one that was the start of the slippery slope for me) so I'm quite happy buying another Canadian-made M.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[A miller]

My M2, M5, MP (and M8) are all German made so I think I'm ok for that side of things (plus an old Voigtlander and a Rolleiflex or two).

 

My M3 is a Canadian-made camera and I've always got on well with that (it was the one that was the start of the slippery slope for me) so I'm quite happy buying another Canadian-made M.

 

Fair enough, although this is all about hair splitting and seeking input on a primarily emotional decision from others. To me, the great thing about these old camera is the German craftsmanship.

 

With all the great cameras in your arsenal that you have cited, it seems to me that you may have enough of them