Any whispers at PK of FW update to correct GPS problem?

[wlaidlaw]

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Could any visitors to PK ask if there is any update to the FW on the horizon in the near future. My main problem with the current FW was the idiotic change to the GPS position retention, which was changed to delete after five minutes, instead of 24 hours. As the GPS often takes over five minutes to acquire GPS lock and loses it very easily, this makes the current MF grip’s GPS function close to useless. For example in last week’s classic car rally in Colorado, I had GPS data on less than 30% of my images, although it was always switched on. I understand that the next FW update is likely to change the setting for deletion of the data to three hours.

 

If there is no update soon, I may not bother to take the MF grip for my three week trip to Taiwan starting at the end of next month.

 

Wilson

[jdlaing]

Taiwan is 50/50 odds you get solid lock on Leica's GPS anyway.

Taipei is better until you get deep in the canyons and then it's shot.

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[AlanJW]

I agree with Wilson. Going inside from outside will lose the connection in the allotted 5 minutes. As an example, I have a house that is situated in the woods. If I want to go for a walk with my camera and shoot some of the foliage for example, and then come in for lunch, the system will disconnect after 5 minutes inside and then have to search again if go out. I just do not understand the logic of the 5 minute rule, and if there is some logic, how about making it a user selectable option (5 minutes or 24 hours)? For now I consider the GPS to be a fairly useless battery hog and have turned it off.

Edited September 19, 2014 by WeinschelA

[01af]

There will be firmware updates for all digital M models before long, from M8 through M-P (Typ 240)—that is, before Christmas (this year's, hopefully). The new line of Summarit-M 1:2.4 lenses have got new 6-bit codes, and the current firmware versions don't recognise these. So new firmware versions are required.

 

But then, that's for the new lens codes only. Leica Camera's engineers sure are aware of many bugs and idiosyncrasies of the firmwares and they'll try to iron out as many as possible. But there's no definite information as to which issues exactly will get addressed in addition to the implementation of the new lens codes.

[jbl]

Are you sure they're using new codes for the new Sumarits? I could imagine the codes being the same.

[KariP]

I suggest the following (if Leica R&D people read these forums):

First of all the position should be saved for an hour or two.

In the menu GPS is first OFF. When you turn it on the menu list would state first SEARCHING then LOCKED. When GPS connection is lost for more than the set amount of time you'd get a warning screen GPS LOST - PRESENT POSITION (select) SAVE or DELETE.

If deleted it'd be as now: no GPS data in pictures and menu saying SEARCHING.

If saved the menu wold say SAVED but actually the search would go on in tha back ground. The position would be stamped on all subsequent pictures. Every time the camera is turned on as long as there is a saved pisition in memory you'd get a warning screen: GPS POSITION (select) USE SAVED DATA / CLEAR MEMORY. If cleared pictures would lack position data and the GPS search woild go on in both cases.

Without turning the camera off one could go to the menu which says SAVED. Go in and select CLEAR MEMORY (but leave it ON) and you'd get the next position data once the GPS is locked again.

This way we'd get position data on all pictures taken in fixed inside (and other no-signal) locations. Think of a museum, concert, show, exposition, hotel, home etc. where you can't get the signal and you don't change location.

Sorry, the explanation sounds more complicated than the change in the logic actually is.

Le's hope we'll get even longer memory time but the obove wold be the best remedy to poorly working MF grip.

[wlaidlaw]

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There are lots of “wouldn’t it be nice if” scenarios for the GPS but I understand that all that can be done with the current module and in camera processing is to alter the delete time. Apparently it was altered from the original 24 hours (which seemed fine to me) as people were getting wrong GPS data after taking long flights. What bright spark came up with the 5 minute idea I don’t know but he obviously never went and tested it in the field. Two friends who are close to Leica, have on my behalf, explained the issue to Leica, who have now accepted their error. I suggested the variable user selectable delete period but was told that was not possible. I then said well 4 hours then. Leica have then come back with the three hour suggestion, which I said would be just fine. I only got the beta FW late this time and did not spot this problem so “mea culpa” also.

 

Wilson

[Exodies]

Rather than extending the stale data retention period why not keep the last known location until a new one is available? It is absurd to think that after loss of signal the last known position is good enough but 3 hours later it isn't. An encoding of "signal lost" could be stored in the Exif SubjectLocation field.

[wlaidlaw]

Rather than extending the stale data retention period why not keep the last known location until a new one is available? It is absurd to think that after loss of signal the last known position is good enough but 3 hours later it isn't. An encoding of "signal lost" could be stored in the Exif SubjectLocation field.

 

That is what the camera already does but only now retains the last known position for five minutes, which is often not long enough to re-acquire satellite lock. For some reason, maybe a very small aerial, the MF grip module is very slow to acquire lock. My Porsche normally acquires lock in about 25 to 30 seconds from start, probably with a large aerial. My Garmin portable GPS normally takes 1 to 2 minutes from a cold start. The Leica MF grip/M240 takes around 4 to 9 minutes from a cold start, depending on location, number of satellites in view, signal strength, etc.

 

For example you always lose lock inside a building (unless it has a thin wooden roof), so within five minutes of entering any building, you no longer get GPS data on images. Now I am not worried about it being accurate to the last metre but it is nice to know the general location the photo was taken in, maybe years later.

 

Earlier this year, I went to south India and took a lot of photos inside various temples and palaces, using the earlier FW with 24 hour last fix deletion. It is good to be able to look on a map and see where that temple or palace was, as we visited 8 cities in three weeks. With the current FW, I would not have that information. With a three hour deletion of last fix, I would have.

 

Wilson

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Edited September 20, 2014 by wlaidlaw

[wlaidlaw]

Just to clarify my last post: If the camera/grip has satellite lock, it continuously updates the GPS position in real time, which then gets applied to the image at the time of taking. It is only when it has lost reception, that the last position is retained and will be applied to any image’s EXIF taken within the period, currently only five minutes before the position is deleted (with the camera switched on or off). After the five minutes have elapsed since the last successful satellite lock and an image is taken, no GPS data will be appended to the EXIF and this will continue on further images until such time as a new satellite lock is obtained.

 

Wilson

[Exodies]

Yes. The point I was trying to make but too succinctly is that after the signal is lost the camera has to choose between recording the last known position or nowhere. Leica has decided that last known position is best for a limited time (was 24 hours, currently 5 mins, to be 3 hours) after which nowhere is best. I say that last known position is best for ever (ie until the next good signal).

 

In other words, when you don't know where you are, last known position is closer than nowhere.

[wlaidlaw]

Yes. The point I was trying to make but too succinctly is that after the signal is lost the camera has to choose between recording the last known position or nowhere. Leica has decided that last known position is best for a limited time (was 24 hours, currently 5 mins, to be 3 hours) after which nowhere is best. I say that last known position is best for ever (ie until the next good signal).

 

In other words, when you don't know where you are, last known position is closer than nowhere.

 

Apparently there were a lot of very vocal objections to “wrong” positions being recorded on images, as obviously today, you can travel to pretty much anywhere else in the world in 24 hours, so the position could be very wrong. So therefore, Leica went to the other extreme, without obviously testing how the five minute deletion worked (or in this did case did not work). Of course the basic problem is that the aerial or GPS module is inadequate, which leads to the slow fix acquisition.

 

Leica really is not very good at electronics I am afraid. If I was in charge, I would hand the whole electronics department over to their friends at Panasonic, who have a pretty good track record of getting it right. This would save money in the long run and increase customer satisfaction hugely. If necessary, I am sure Panasonic would be happy to set up in Wetzlar, for the sake of good liaison, rather like Zeiss run their successful operation at Cosina in Japan.

 

The GPS in my wife’s previous Panasonic built V-Lux 20 works much better.

 

Wilson

[Exodies]

The vocalists mistake is in thinking that not recording a location (which I have been calling "nowhere") is less wrong than the last known location.

 

The maximum error in position between last known location and current location on Earth is half the circumference of the planet.

 

The maximum error in position between nowhere and current location is infinite.

[pop]

The vocalists mistake is in thinking that not recording a location (which I have been calling "nowhere") is less wrong than the last known location.

 

The maximum error in position between last known location and current location on Earth is half the circumference of the planet.

 

The maximum error in position between nowhere and current location is infinite.

This happens to be not the case.

 

An image with missing location data clearly says that the data is not available and that you have to use other resources to find out where it has been taken. An image with false data does not necessarily alert you and is therefore actively misleading.

 

The cheapest and most robust solution I have found is tracking my travels with my phone and correlating the recorded track with the pictures later on the computer. You only have to make sure that your camera keeps time with reasonable accuracy, but that would be the topic for another thread.

[Exodies]

If you don't like that view, then how about this one:

 

It is easier to delete an erroneous location than to put in a correct one.

 

Why is it ok to mislead us with a false location for 24 hours, 5 minutes, or 3 hours and then it's not ok to mislead us?

 

And another thing

A stuck location is a clear sign that the satellite signal has been lost. No location means something is wrong with the camera or GPS.

Edited September 21, 2014 by Exodies

[wlaidlaw]

This happens to be not the case.

 

An image with missing location data clearly says that the data is not available and that you have to use other resources to find out where it has been taken. An image with false data does not necessarily alert you and is therefore actively misleading.

 

The cheapest and most robust solution I have found is tracking my travels with my phone and correlating the recorded track with the pictures later on the computer. You only have to make sure that your camera keeps time with reasonable accuracy, but that would be the topic for another thread.

 

Philipp,

 

It is a sad reflection on Leica’s electronic skills that your phone, which probably costs less than the MF grip alone, does a better job of tracking position.

 

I turn off data roaming when overseas due to the very high cost of data when out of your country of origin. I learnt my lesson, when we took the wrong Interstate exit in our hire car on the way to our hotel in Washington DC. I switched on data roaming on my iPhone to navigate to our hotel, which took about 30 minutes. When I got home, I got an £80+ bill for data.

 

Wilson

[pop]

If you don't like that view, then how about this one:

 

It is easier to delete an erroneous location than to put in a correct one.

 

Why is it ok to mislead us with a false location for 24 hours, 5 minutes, or 3 hours and then it's not ok to mislead us?

 

And another thing

A stuck location is a clear sign that the satellite signal has been lost. No location means something is wrong with the camera or GPS.

 

If you think it easier to determine exactly which photographs are tagged with false data and then to remove those tags, go ahead.

 

People working in and with IT have known for a long time that recording wrong data leads to vastly more problems than not recording data which should be there. Heck, even accountants have known that for centuries.

 

"No location" means exactly that - no location known. You could be indoors. You could be in a car. You could be in a forest. You could be in a steep mountain valley. You could be in a city street. You could have wrapped your camera in tin foil.

[pop]

Philipp,

 

It is a sad reflection on Leica’s electronic skills that your phone, which probably costs less than the MF grip alone, does a better job of tracking position.

 

I turn off data roaming when overseas due to the very high cost of data when out of your country of origin. I learnt my lesson, when we took the wrong Interstate exit in our hire car on the way to our hotel in Washington DC. I switched on data roaming on my iPhone to navigate to our hotel, which took about 30 minutes. When I got home, I got an £80+ bill for data.

 

Wilson

 

Yes, it's a bit annoying. But then, since none of my other cameras claim to be able to handle GPS, one more or less does not change the game for me. This also reminds me of one of the better known computer makers whose phone would not properly phone when held the way most mortals are known to hold their phones. Manure happens and is useful to some.

 

I do use my phone for GPS tracking abroad. It works perfectly fine with the roaming disabled. Mine runs the Google OS and can download the maps before I go offline.

 

You don't have to use a phone, either. Whenever I feel the need for accurate GPS data, I use my GPS receiver, which beats both phones and cameras. It does, however, take several minutes to initially fix its position and it eats batteries as if there was no tomorrow. It was not cheap, either, and has a bewildering number of functions. I don't know if it walks dogs, too.

[Exodies]

<snip>

"No location" means exactly that - no location known. You could be indoors. You could be in a car. You could be in a forest. You could be in a steep mountain valley. You could be in a city street. You could have wrapped your camera in tin foil.

 

Your camera or MFG could be broken.

 

Send them to meet their maker just to be sure.

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[mjh]

Your camera or MFG could be broken.

Which, however, would be the least likely explanation. In 99.9% of all cases one of the explanations mentioned by Philipp applies.

 

The camera isn’t a smartphone that has access to several methods of fixing the position, such as triangulating between phone masts or known Wi-Fi networks. My iPad can often tell where it is just based on the locations of nearby wireless networks.

 

Having said that, I agree that forgetting the position after just 5 minutes is too short an interval; about 15 minutes would seem sensible to me.