M240 Purchase

[freitz]

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While at with my wife we stumbled on a Leica Store (actually I knew it was there ha!) but I spent a few hours in the store with one of the salesmen.

 

I currently shoot a 6D with 24-70 MK II and 70-200 MK II. Not the lightest setup there is and a bit heavy when using all day.

 

I mainly shoot

-Travel

-Landscapes

-Astro (hardly ever really but would like to)

-Family snap shots

 

My goals

-bring my camera anywhere

-lighten the load so easier to carry

-not be embarrassed to pull out in tight crowds (this happens with travel, hard to pull out that camera with a 70-200 on it and not get stares)

-Enjoy photography (sometimes my 6D feels more like work then play) I enjoy photography but lately have been leaving my camera at home because its a lot to carry around.

 

I just wanted to see if anyone else has made the move from FF with lenses to the Leica M system and looking for your input. I figured this would be the pace to ask.

[mfunnell]

I use an M type 240 as well as, rather than instead of, my Canon DSLR system (FF and APS-C Canons).

 

You'll find the M type 240 only a little smaller and no lighter than your 6D. Without using an EVF - not the M type 240's best thing, IMO - or, for wide lenses, an external optical finder, you'll be limited to using prime lenses in the range of approximately 28mm through 90mm (perhaps out to 135mm at a push). No zoom lenses. No autofocus - manual focus only. Framing will be less accurate than an SLR or EVF or other through-the-lens finder technology. Within that focal length range focus accuracy will be more precise than SLR focus (manual or auto), once you are used to focusing with the rangefinder. The lenses themselves will be smaller and usually lighter than the equivalent Canon prime lenses (a lot smaller and lighter than your zoom lenses) and of as good or better (usually quite a bit better) optical quality than Canon L primes of the same focal length, and they will usually cost a lot more. This is more-or-less on the principle that the last 10% of the performance accounts for the last 90% of the price.

 

You might or might not get along with the very different approach to framing and focusing required with a manual focus rangefinder compared to an autofocus SLR.

 

If you are unfamiliar with using rangefinder cameras (you might, for example, have used them in the film days) I'd strongly suggest hiring something like an M9 or M type 240 and using it for a week or so before committing the substantial money required to buy into a digital M system, just to make sure you do get on with the system and that it does what you want. I'd also suggest keeping some or all of your Canon system, rather than replacing it, if you're ever likely to want the things that SLRs do better (such as using long lenses or doing macro photography) as well as the type of photography that rangefinders do well.

 

Just my thoughts, and others may differ, but they are based on experience.

 

...Mike

Edited August 30, 2014 by mfunnell

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[hossain]

For what it's worth:

 

Leica M (typ 240) VS Canon 5D III

[wattsy]

I currently shoot a 6D with 24-70 MK II and 70-200 MK II. Not the lightest setup there is and a bit heavy when using all day.

 

By all means change to the M system but I'm not sure you are comparing like with like when you described your Canon kit as too heavy and making you self-conscious in tight crowds. If you swap your big F2.8 zooms for small primes like the 35/F2 and 85/F1.8 you'll find it much lighter to carry and no more likely to attract attention than a Leica M.

[bocaburger]

To your goals (from someone who has been using Leicas for 45+ years, along with many other systems off and on, and currently also has Canon FF):

 

-bring my camera anywhere

 

How comfortable will you be doing that with a $7000 camera and lenses costing at least $2-3000 apiece?

 

-lighten the load so easier to carry

 

There was a time, but with digital, Leica's have been getting larger and heavier while other excellent systems have appeared which are much more compact and light.

 

-not be embarrassed to pull out in tight crowds (this happens with travel, hard to pull out that camera with a 70-200 on it and not get stares)

 

Definitely, but again, there are other excellent, lighter and much less costly systems that also solve that issue.

 

-Enjoy photography (sometimes my 6D feels more like work then play) I enjoy photography but lately have been leaving my camera at home because its a lot to carry around.

 

I used to feel that way, all the years I was using an M4 vs the ever-increasingly-bloated SLRs throughout the 80s-90s. But the digital Ms feel heavier and fatter, and some of the lenses are as large as and heavier than SLR lenses. Since I got my Nex 6 as a backup to the M240 I realize the Leica M has strayed far from its origins as a lightweight, compact system.

 

I have 45 years invested in familiarity with the M concept, it's like an old traveling companion to me. And my armamentarium of lenses includes numerous very light, small ones which are no longer in production, bought years ago for a fraction of today's prices even when adjusted for inflation. Were I not already in that position there is no way I would buy into Leica today, honestly.

Edited August 30, 2014 by bocaburger

[freitz]

To your goals (from someone who has been using Leicas for 45+ years, along with many other systems off and on, and currently also has Canon FF):

 

 

 

How comfortable will you be doing that with a $7000 camera and lenses costing at least $2-3000 apiece?

 

 

 

There was a time, but with digital, Leica's have been getting larger and heavier while other excellent systems have appeared which are much more compact and light.

 

 

 

Definitely, but again, there are other excellent, lighter and much less costly systems that also solve that issue.

 

 

 

I used to feel that way, all the years I was using an M4 vs the ever-increasingly-bloated SLRs throughout the 80s-90s. But the digital Ms feel heavier and fatter, and some of the lenses are as large as and heavier than SLR lenses. Since I got my Nex 6 as a backup to the M240 I realize the Leica M has strayed far from its origins as a lightweight, compact system.

 

I have 45 years invested in familiarity with the M concept, it's like an old traveling companion to me. And my armamentarium of lenses includes numerous very light, small ones which are no longer in production, bought years ago for a fraction of today's prices even when adjusted for inflation. Were I not already in that position there is no way I would buy into Leica today, honestly.

 

What system would you have bought into then?

[colonel]

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By all means change to the M system but I'm not sure you are comparing like with like when you described your Canon kit as too heavy and making you self-conscious in tight crowds. If you swap your big F2.8 zooms for small primes like the 35/F2 and 85/F1.8 you'll find it much lighter to carry and no more likely to attract attention than a Leica M.

 

The DSLRs are quite big blobs. I find the Leica has more of a curiosity value.

As soon as you get a DSLR out, even with a small lens, people notice it and often become uncomfortable.

 

However there is a real size and weight difference, especially at f1.4.

A Leica M with a 35mm f1.4 lens (1,000g) is lighter and smaller then the Canon (or Nikon) with their equivalent 35mm f1.4 (6D + lens) 1,337g) and the Leica one is much better, in particular sharp wide open

 

The main 3 things for the Leica M is (i) to get on with RF focus, many people like it better to AF or any other kind of MF, but some can't get on with it and (ii) understand that apart from aperture priority you will be choosing focus, aperture and speed for each shot, AND getting intimately familiar with what each FL really is (iii) forget about zoom lenses, although there is a 28-35-50mm f4 step zoom floating around second hand .....

 

I love it!

Edited August 30, 2014 by colonel

[freitz]

The DSLRs are quite big blobs. I find the Leica has more of a curiosity value.

As soon as you get a DSLR out, even with a small lens, people notice it and often become uncomfortable.

 

However there is a real size and weight difference, especially at f1.4.

A Leica M with a 35mm f1.4 lens (1,000g) is lighter and smaller then the Canon (or Nikon) with their equivalent 35mm f1.4 (6D + lens) 1,337g) and the Leica one is much better, in particular sharp wide open

 

The main 3 things for the Leica M is (i) to get on with RF focus, many people like it better to AF or any other kind of MF, but some can't get on with it and (ii) understand that apart from aperture priority you will be choosing focus, aperture and speed for each shot, AND getting intimately familiar with what each FL really is (iii) forget about zoom lenses, although there is a 28-35-50mm f4 step zoom floating around second hand .....

 

I love it!

 

This may sound silly but I'm a slight bit frightened of how much I enjoyed playing with that camera in the Leica store. I went in just to go in not to really look at anything. I ended up spending 2 hours in the store with the salesmen who went through all the details and I really enjoyed setting up the shots (wife had to get me out of the store).

 

What I am frightened about is I will make the jump but miss something in the process. I feel with my 6D and 24-70 -70 200 MKII's I won't miss a shot however I have to have the camera out to take the shot. A lot of times I have that camera away in the bag even when traveling I take it out for short periods and put its away. To spend that much money to sit in a bag is pointless. Its uncomfortable to take out and nice dinners for a quick shot, or a brunch at one of the cafe's. This is at home or travel, draws a lot of attention.

 

My main thing and what I shoot is the following

-Travel

-Portrait

-Landscapes / Architecture (falls under travel though)

-Long exposures (just starting this)

-Scenic

-Only fast moving subject would be children. No children yet but its in the works.

 

I also have a Sl1 that my wife uses. I was planning to sell that for the Leica T for her.

[DigitalHeMan]

If you're frightened don't do it. Just buy a decent compact like the Leica D-Lux and use that when you don't want to use the Canon.

Edited August 30, 2014 by DigitalHeMan

[bocaburger]

What system would you have bought into then?

 

Myself, probably the Sony E series. Or Fuji X series. Haven't really considered it seriously. I got the Nex 6 as a backup for my M240. Any of the things you want to do can be done with the Leica. Children and other moving targets are a challenge unless you use shorter lenses and stop down so DOF covers some focusing error. If you like to do candids or kids in action with a 90/2 wide open, get ready for a real challenge with the Leica. Not so much because it's manual focus, but because the rangefinder patch is dead-center. It's like the first generation AF cameras in that regard.

 

If you need to take kid pics get yourself a cheap APS-C Canon to use expressly for that. I still have my 5D and a few lenses. Primes and prosumer zooms, sold all the humongous L zooms.

[freitz]

If you're frightened don't do it. Just buy a decent compact like the Leica D-Lux and use that when you don't want to use the Canon.

 

Maybe that was not the best choice of words. I feel invested in the Canon system which makes it harder to change. Not just the money but emotionally... Canon is safe, its a glorified point and shoot with large lenses and great quality. I shoot in manual 100% of the time, however there is almost no though process it is rather snap snap snap and move on.

 

Hopefully that makes a little bit more sense.

[A Almulla]

Just over two decades with Nikon. Last year bought the Fujifilm X100s which introduced the world of rangefinders and in January made the jump to Leica and specifically got 35cron and 50lux.

 

Been over a year since I looked at my Nikon gear let alone use it.

[bocaburger]

Canon is safe, its a glorified point and shoot with large lenses and great quality. I shoot in manual 100% of the time, however there is almost no though process it is rather snap snap snap and move on.

 

I guess it's a matter of perception. I certainly don't approach my Canons that way. Same creative thought process as I use with Leica. All that's different is with the Leica I need to mentally imagine what the DOF will be, and compensate for the imprecision of the framelines at longer distances.

[Zhaba]

I made the switch a couple years ago from a Nikon D3s and several lenses to an M9 and 50mm Summicron. I have since added 35mm and 75mm Summicrons and an M240. Photography is fun again, and my pictures have never been better.

[Dannybuoy]

Hi Freitz

 

Just replied to your PM on Flickr, not sure if you've read yet or not. Think my feelings are matched by a few folks here. However I'm actually pretty confident taking photos of my kids with the M now (as you'll see from my Flickr steam mostly all I shoot at the moment is my kids! :-)). I must say I actually prefer manual focus over the auto focus on my X-T1. Autofocus can let you down. It can hunt. If you get the manual focus thing down it's actually really easy to nail focus.

 

I didn't realise you were on the store for 2 hours. That's more than enough time to catch the bug that goes around in those places. It sounds like it's definitely too late

[freitz]

Hi Freitz

 

Just replied to your PM on Flickr, not sure if you've read yet or not. Think my feelings are matched by a few folks here. However I'm actually pretty confident taking photos of my kids with the M now (as you'll see from my Flickr steam mostly all I shoot at the moment is my kids! :-)). I must say I actually prefer manual focus over the auto focus on my X-T1. Autofocus can let you down. It can hunt. If you get the manual focus thing down it's actually really easy to nail focus.

 

I didn't realise you were on the store for 2 hours. That's more than enough time to catch the bug that goes around in those places. It sounds like it's definitely too late

 

Hey Dan!

 

Yeah I was in the DC store for a good 2 hours. Wife was shopping....

 

They were extremely helpful. I got your message was actually about to send you a reply. Funny your on the forums here too.

 

I've been researching since the other day and one thing I have noticed.

 

Everyone who does not have a Leica bashes it or complains about its limitations but those who do own one love the limitations... Interesting.

[bocaburger]

Everyone who does not have a Leica bashes it or complains about its limitations but those who do own one love the limitations... Interesting.

 

Oh I disagree that everyone who doesn't own a Leica bashes it. Most people really have better things to do than bash a certain brand of camera. What I think engenders a lot of the bashing is the quasireligious way many devoteess of the brand spin the limitations as advantages, and the often condescending way they dismiss non-users as lacking in experience or enlightenment. The fact is I think you will find only a small percentage of owners who use Leica exclusively. I believe the majority of Leica users also own and use other systems, particularly DSLRs. The Leica-only do-or-die faction does however tend to be overrepresented on Leica forums, which might lead to the impression that everyone who owns Leicas is enamored with its limitations.

[pop]

That makes it sound as if Leica and the RF had limitations while a DSLR with autofocus had none. Truth is, both have limitations but not the same set. Hence, in most cases both will do quite well and the difference will mostly be a matter of what you're used to. In the remaining cases one will save your day where the other may not, except where none will do.

[thighslapper]

In many ways this is a change in philosophy rather than gear.....

 

Photography with a Leica is a step back to an age where you have to concentrate more on the fundamentals of what makes a good photograph..... both technically and artistically..... as all the most of the automation and software thinking has been taken away.......

 

If you can cope with this potential initial frustration you will find photography with a Leica very rewarding.

 

As a bonus you will not have the wife shouting at you that half the luggage you go on holiday with is full of bulky camera gear ......

 

Be prepared to sell a kidney/child/holiday home to finance all of this though .......

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[freitz]

I like the fact that it is a step back. The biggest issue with my DSLR right now (along with size, bulk, attention) is that photography is no longer as fun as it was when I first upgraded to full frame. Now it is more of a hassle to bring all of my equipment. I think the current set up allows me to take excellent photographs and I like composing and setting up the shot but as of lately its been more point and shoot. The zooms allow me to grab shots anywhere, but it also allows me to stop thinking. Manual mode is second nature; I am by no means saying I am an expert with little left to master with the DSLR. I am saying that I think it has taken from me the part I liked most about photography.

-How to compose the picture

-The feeling of wanting to take your camera not having to take it

-Missing shots because its just to much to pull out real fast or keep out without grabbing to much attention.

-Tinkering (I build custom computers as my other hobby and I love to tinker)

-Rewarding (6D leave me with little to think about when I shoot, its comfortable to pull out and snap a quick shot and forget about it. I expect a perfect shot rather then make a perfect shot myself)

 

Hopefully this adds more details. I am looking to change the way I shoot and the way I think about my camera. No sense to have all this money invested in something that I will contemplate taking or not. It should be without question that it comes along to document my life.