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Anyone using a 28 Super Angulon R PC lens?


rafael_macia

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I am thinking to acquire a 28mm Super Angulon R PC lens, to use on my M for architectural work.

So far I have used the 28 Summicron and corrected the vertical persecutive using Photoshop. I would shoot a build facade and leave a bit more area above the top of the building, to leave room for the correction in Photoshop.

It seems to have worked.

Would I be better off to be using a PC lens. In particular the 28 Super Angulon ?

Would the results using the PC lens be more true to the actual view of the building facade, or can Photoshop do as good.

The 28 PC lens is a large lens, and as it blocks a great deal of the rangefinder window, I think it could only be used in a practical sense via LV.

What I am asking then is;

Does it make any sense to use a PC lens rather than using a normal 28, and correcting perspective in Photoshop?

 

also,

The 28 PC is not listed in the list of R lenses

 

On an older forum thread I read that the best lens profile to select when using the SA PC lens is the lens profile for the 50mm Noctilux F1 M lens.

Anyone have suggestions on which lens profile to select ?

Thanking all in advance for any help

Rafael

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Rafael - Maybe you're satisfied with correcting perspectives in DxO or Photoshop, but you may not be completely satisfied until the rays if light are hitting the sensor's pixels dead on, with little or no post-processing. Correcting in software exacts some image quality. Going to the edge of the image field with a shift lens gives better quality, but takes some of it back with edge aberrations and vignetting. Please refer to the forum's "Options for Shift lenses on the M-240 -Merged" http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/260186-options-shift-lenses-m-240-merged-2.html and Manolo Laguillo's post "Using the 2.8/28 PC Super-Angulon-R on the M" http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/261755-using-2-8-28-pc-super.html. It is this later post where Manolo stated. "After some experimenting, I've found that the best manual profile to be used with the 2.8/28 PC Super-Angulon-R is the one for the Noctilux-M 50mm f/1." It seems only practical to use LV or EVF with the PC SA on the M-240.

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"So far I have used the 28 Summicron and corrected the vertical persecutive using Photoshop. I would shoot a build facade and leave a bit more area above the top of the building, to leave room for the correction in Photoshop.

It seems to have worked.

Would I be better off to be using a PC lens.... the 28 Super Angulon ?

Would the results using the PC lens be more true to the actual view of the building facade, or can Photoshop do as good.

The 28 PC lens is a large lens, and as it blocks a great deal of the rangefinder window, I think it could only be used in a practical sense via LV.

Does it make any sense to use a PC lens rather than using a normal 28, and correcting perspective in Photoshop? "

 

The Super Angulon was a wide-field lens like those Schneider made for 5x4 cameras; the 28mm covers a lot more than the 24x36mm format but needs to be stopped well down for sharpness and would never equal the Summicron in this respect. (Not much does.)

I use a 28mm Nikon PC reflex-camera lens on my M9 after experience with a 35mm Olympus shift lens.

The obvious drawback on an M9 is you cannot see the effect of the shift until after you take the picture so it would be better to work with a tripod. I cannot be bothered to carry a heavy tripod when taking architectural subjects on walks in London. Obviously the 28mm viewfinder in the Leica will show me that I am holding the camera straight (and the shutter speed) but it does not show me the top of the picture using shift. 11mm is the maximum shift and the effect is considerable. Often 5mm suffices.

I use a 21mm Voigtlander viewfinder and I know how much shift is required for the top of the image recorded to be the same as the top of that seen in the viewfinder; I expect to have to take three pictures to get one good one. I leave the aperture at f11 to ensure sharpness.

(Buying an M240 with live view would be a good move.)

When I previously used Photoshop to straighten images taken of buildings with my f2.8 28mm Elmarit the edges of the pictures disappeared due to the side-effects of straightening. Obviously there is much less need for such correction with a shift lens so less side-effects but I use Photoshop every time to open the raw image, adjust the lighting, reduce noise and sharpen up. It's a pleasure when I open a raw image and find it needs hardly any correction but it doesn't happen often with a hand-held shot; better results are obtained using a tripod and a spirit level to set the camera up straight but I wouldn't try doing that on a busy London pavement or in the middle of a road.

If you can get used to the added complication of a PC lens the results are worthwhile.

I hope that helps you.:)

 

Philip

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Thanks Phillip,

Fortunately, I have a 240. So live view it will be. I do work on a tripod, ( I got used to that from years of 4x5 work).

Enough people have told me corrections in Photoshop are not as good as an image made with a PC lens. The jobs I have done with the Photoshop corrected 28 Summicron, have come out well. But somehow I think there is something special about the SAPC

 

 

I have decided to keep the lens .... learn to use it ... deal with finding the unmounted glass 67 EW filters that get dropped into the hood......... well maybe not find those impossible to find filters ....(or put a 67>77>Series 9>ring on for any filters).

 

So thanks all for any suggestions !

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The R to M adapter brings up the R lens menu selection .... does it not?

 

If so, how can an M lens profile, such as advised (Noctilux F1), be used with the R to M adapter?

How can the lens profile (which is an M lens profile), be selected

if the adapter brings up a list of R lenses ?

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The R to M adapter brings up the R lens menu selection .... does it not?

 

If so, how can an M lens profile, such as advised (Noctilux F1), be used with the R to M adapter?

How can the lens profile (which is an M lens profile), be selected

if the adapter brings up a list of R lenses ?

 

You are right. My advice of using the Noctilux f.1 profile with the Super Angulon 28 PC is only possible with the M9 and the MM.

Manolo

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Yes, now on FX Nikon.

 

I discovered the electronic levels built into the Nikon and they largely surpass the tripod I used to use.

 

My model has both left/ right & forward/backward visible on the back and in the viewfinder. If you ever tried a shift lens hand held, you would see how difficult it is. But with the built in levels, I can do a guess shift, check, reset and check, and when you have it perfect, stop the lens down, set both levels in the viewfinder, and make the exposure.

 

Horizontal level is normally not a big problem, but you have to watch. The problem is trying to true up verticals on both left & right at the same time and still keep it horizontal. Previously I set H and F/B with the tripod ignoring cut off building tops. Set exposure, then add shift to limit foreground just as I would do with a view camera. With the built in levels, all this goes away.

 

I even did a forest scene that had no perfect reference lines. It came out with no weird twists.

 

In the end for perfection in the camera, you will need a tripod or in camera levels you can see in the viewfinder. Or just use photoshop with limitations.

 

One last thought, unless you are dead on straight to a building , there is vanishing point perspective to it and the only reference lines are verticals. This is close to impossible to line up by hand without levels.

 

I must emphasize you need both horizontal and tip levels for this to work.

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When I decided to take out the SA on the architectural job I had, some twists that happened; some good ; some bad;

The outdoor views of the home some I did with both the SA, and the 21 3.4 Super Elmar. (a wonderful lens ....! )

The SA came with a shade which specified 67mm drop in B&W unmounted glass EW filters.

That ruled out getting a polarizer quickly.

I couldn't find those filters anywhere.

 

I have two 240 bodies.

One body was used with the 28PC and the other 240 body with the 21 SE

On the body with the SA PC I was using a Chinese R to M adapter .....( could not wait for the Leica one ...... but now a Leica one is a must. ... you will see why soon)

The Chinese R to M adapter brought up the M lens menu, on the 240 body it was mounted on.

Somewhat fortunate ....?

because,

.....I was able to use Manolo Languillo's recommendation to shoot the SA PC and selecting the profile for the Noctilux f1, an M lens.

I thought all was normal, that the SA, when used on the 240 would bring up the M menu ... wrong !

The other 240 body had the SE 21 3.4 mounted. Lens detection set to Automatic.

 

during the shoot, because one body's battery was running low, I switched lenses, each to the other body.

I forgot to re program the body I had been using with the 28PC. I forgot to remove the Noctilux profile.

The Super Elmar got shot with the 50mm Noctilux profile

Lot of work to fix !

When the SA was mounted on the second body I saw that the Chinese R to M adapter would bring up the R lens profiles.

 

So, the Chinese adapter would activate the R Menu on one body only.

 

In this case, I say

Thank you Chinese adapter !

without the defective adapter ...(well ..... it may be the adapter .... or body .. we will see)

I would never have been able to use that profile.

 

(btw,

For any of you who have an M9 or MM, using the 28 SA PC with the Noctilux lens profile recommended by Monolo Languillo, (see links earlier posted ) DOES indeed work well.

The pictures using that profile with the SA PC lens on the 240 with .... the weird Chinese R to M adapter ......are perfect!)

 

I have changed my mind about keeping the SA, for these reasons;

The picture quality is not up to the level of the Super Elmar, or the Summicron. Contrast, and sharpness are lower.

Plus that, the filter issue is problematic.

and for some reason, I could never get focus peaking or the magnification to work when the 28 SA was mounted .... on the body which only brought up the M menu for lens selection.

Lastly, because it is unsupported ... maybe there is no useful lens profile ? .. for use on a 240 ...

 

If you do try a 28SA PC;

The SA 28 PC seems to overexpose, uniformly by about a stop, or stop and a half.

 

gotta figure something else out .... not going back to a Linhof !

 

thanks for reading, sorry I go on and on sometimes.

 

rafael

Edited by rafael_macia
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I have changed my mind about keeping the SA, for these reasons;

The picture quality is not up to the level of the Super Elmar, or the Summicron. Contrast, and sharpness are lower.

 

rafael

 

I would test another exemplar of the 28 PC Super Angulon, there could be differences.

And I do use the new Leica R to M adapter, nothing less, for two reasons: 1. It is a good idea to fix the rig to the tripod via the adapter, instead of using the camera. 2. the precision is very important, and the cheap chinese adapter could be wrong.

Did you use f.8 or (even better) f.11? This is also vital.

Finally, I would dare to say that the differences in sharpness between the 21/3.4 (which I have) and the Super Angulon 28 PC, perhaps visible on the screen, are invisible in a A2 print. The 28 PC quality is amazing, on the MM it is comparable to medium format film.

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I did use f 16.

It might indeed be the example of the lens. Maybe it is a poor example of 28 PC?

and The Chinese adapter may well be off. Either that or the second 240 body is off.

The coming Leica adapter will show what is what.

I know you use an M9, not a 240.

When you use your Noctilux profile with the 28 PC, does not your M9 bring up the R lens profiles? ...when you connect the R to M adapter?

How do you get the M Noctilux profile?

 

Do you have any suggestion of what profile use with the 240 ?

 

And I agree the tripod foot is important. I welcome it.

The Novoflex adapter design somehow missed doing that.

R lenses are heavy!

thanks for your input, it really helps !

rafael

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I did use f 16.

It might indeed be the example of the lens. Maybe it is a poor example of 28 PC?

and The Chinese adapter may well be off. Either that or the second 240 body is off.

The coming Leica adapter will show what is what.

I know you use an M9, not a 240.

When you use your Noctilux profile with the 28 PC, does not your M9 bring up the R lens profiles? ...when you connect the R to M adapter?

How do you get the M Noctilux profile?

 

Do you have any suggestion of what profile use with the 240 ?

 

And I agree the tripod foot is important. I welcome it.

The Novoflex adapter design somehow missed doing that.

R lenses are heavy!

thanks for your input, it really helps !

rafael

 

Don't mention it. :-)

I use now the M240 with the new R to M adapter. It's impossible to use with this combination the Noctilux profile, because only a list with the R lenses appears. Only possibility: using a profile in PP, in my case it is under LR5. I am still experimenting, sometimes the 28/2.8 R profile seems to work, sometimes it is the 19 R one.

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Just as a side note:

 

The other day I was correcting the converging vertical lines present in some photos taken with the MM, and I had a shock when I realized how much sharpness suffers when doing that with LR5.

 

I had never before seen that happening to that extent with the M9 and M240 files, but with the MM files it was VERY visible.

 

This is a strong reason for using the 28PC Super Angulon!

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