Leica Forum

jaques · 12/09/12, 12:52

well- judging by what has been written on various forums this lens will be in demand for some time to come- and is not an investment of the magnitude of the hyerprime.... for people who change their mind it looks to be at least a good chance of recouping purchase cost- or only taking a moderate loss- unless it turns out to be a total failure.

If Zeiss make an f1 lens I am sure it would cause a stir- but I am also sure it would cost at least double what this lens will cost.

menos | M6 · 12/09/12, 13:03

Wilson, we are thinking a lot alike (despite, I have a more positive thinking regarding this Sonnetar).

I absolutely share exactly the same thoughts about the 50 Lux ASPH, which I sold for among others the very same reasons - I envy your vintage Sonnar ;-)

brianv · 12/09/12, 15:54

Given that Cosina discontinued the 50/1.5 Nokton and that the 50/1.1 Nokton is available, I am going to bet that Zeiss will bring out a 50/1.4 Planar type lens in M-Mount. I love my C-Sonnar 50/1.5, but it is not for everyone.

I have a lot of Sonnars. My favorite is the pre-war CZJ Sonnar 5cm F1.5. Mounted in a Jupiter-3 focus mount, the throw of the focus from 0.9m to infinity is less than using it in the Contax to Leica mount adapters.

Showing remarkable restraint on this new lens. I will be interested in seeing images from it.

jaques · 12/09/12, 16:31

there are a few more samples posted now... but the subject matter is pretty dull- and the images don[t look that great to me at all... but then I think that is the content more than anything- what do the optical experts think:

MS Optical Sonnetar 50mm f/1.1 Test pictures | Japan Camera Hunter

also the lens has a few design quirks: no click stops- and aperture dial moves opposite to normal M lenses- and the focus ring is at the very front of the lens... which seems will make an accidental change of aperture easy... not the best quirks- but workable I guess.

Hannes Lummes · 12/09/12, 20:37

Buuhuuu, bad bokeh up to f1.6. (Note that two of the pictures are in reverse order)

brianv · 12/09/12, 21:05

The direction of the aperture is classic Sonnar, no surprise there.

Bokeh is subjective- many love the Bokeh of the Canon 50/0.95 used wide-open. F1.5 Sonnars are over-corrected for spherical aberration- this is typical. I would have preferred seeing a test subject with more fine structure to it.

menos | M6 · 13/09/12, 02:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by brianv

… I would have preferred seeing a test subject with more fine structure to it.

Yes, what I see in the earlier flower sample pictures is, what I like.

I hope, this translates into portraits - relatively low contrast (but not washed out - low), but fine details rendered in combination with that Sonnar background rendering.

I really do not like the Double Gauss rendering of background highlights in low light shots - I have high, high hopes, this lens will perform nicely, elevating the light level and rendering background highlights in a more cinematic way than old Double Gauss designs.

The new test images show a general character of out of focus rendering under the given condition, not much more, I am afraid - looking forward, to see some portraits.

jaques · 13/09/12, 05:39

a few more sample pictures are trickling out... and one of them is the staple of the fast lens tester: a bottle on a table! Looks kind of interesting too:

首批宮崎 50mm 1.1 本人首度彼露全面睇,港元11000 - 第2頁 - 商户區 - Hong Kong Leica Fan Club - Powered by Discuz!

Hannes Lummes · 13/09/12, 07:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by menos | M6

Yes, what I see in the earlier flower sample pictures is, what I like.

I hope, this translates into portraits - relatively low contrast (but not washed out - low), but fine details rendered in combination with that Sonnar background rendering.

I really do not like the Double Gauss rendering of background highlights in low light shots - I have high, high hopes, this lens will perform nicely, elevating the light level and rendering background highlights in a more cinematic way than old Double Gauss designs.

The new test images show a general character of out of focus rendering under the given condition, not much more, I am afraid - looking forward, to see some portraits.

Could you explain cinematic rendering?
The new bottle picture tells the same story as the previous samples, background is nervous and distracting, not of the melting kind. Funny how the flower samples looked sooooo good. I guess highlights just are to be avoided until stopping down to f1.6.

wlaidlaw · 13/09/12, 08:13

Maybe the taker of the later shots had cranked the coma control in the wrong direction. This would certainly have a significant effect on the appearance of the bokeh. As I posted above, in general lots of coma = nice bokeh. Two of the lenses with the lowest coma, the 50/1.4 ASPH Lux and Zeiss 35/2 Planar G have some of the most unpleasant jagged OOF. I was told by someone who used to work for Zeiss UK, that was one of the reasons that Zeiss opted for a Biogon design for the later ZM 35/2. Interestingly Sony/Zeiss have opted for a Sonnar design for the 35/2 lens on the new full frame Sony RX1.

Wilson

***farnz*** · 13/09/12, 21:53

The sample shots of the stone cat are quite revealing. Ignoring the overall rendering of the bokeh and looking at the discs of light (ie specular highlights) particularly the one above the cats left ear reveals the following:

- pleasantly rounded discs, which indicate a reasonably rounded aperture (no hexagons etc)
- even distribution of light across the discs (no bright cores) which indicate little longitudinal chromatic aberration and that spherical aberration is fairly well controlled
- coloured rims so a bit of transverse chromatic aberration
- discs at the edges are also reasonably rounded (no cat's eyes) which indicate very little astigmatism and only mild optical vignetting

To me this seems like a reasonably well-corrected lens particularly for a Sonnar design, which seems like good news.

Pete.

jaques · 22/09/12, 06:36

I have been wondering why I immediately put down a deposit on the lens before any detailed or review and more than a handful of images were released...

Today i came up with a decent rationalization: Size!

Even if this lens is soft with 'bad bokeh to 1.6' - it is tiny for an f1.1: the same size as a 35mm summicron. All other fast lens I have used on the Leica have been large and heavy- which means I am quite likely to leave them at home unless I am really expecting to need the super fast aperture- which means I do not use them as much as I might otherwise.

This new Sonnetar is so small you can think of it as a standard 50mm f2 lens for normal use... but if you desire or need a faster aperture it is there. Assuming the lens performs quite well from f2 and upwards- it could be a real winner. I wish it had click stops though...

hillavoider · 27/09/12, 08:46

anyone have one of these yet?

jaques · 27/09/12, 11:10

if there is anyone they are not posting many pictures online... I keep looking. Apparently I got in relatively early- and may get a lens sometime in late November. I will be posting a thread about it for sure- and may even do a head to head review (my first for cameras) against the f1 noctilux...

I found one more sample image- with half decent sharpness:

Trying out MS Optical Sonnetar 50/1.1 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

wlaidlaw · 27/09/12, 11:42

To give folks a baseline, here are a couple of images with a 1954 West German Sonnar on an M9 at f1.5, taken against bright light. Whole image and centre crop so that you can see the sharpness that this 1954 lens is capable of. I think that the Bokeh is quite nice and if the new Sonnetar does as well in both bokeh and sharpness, it will be a good lens.

I think the 54 Sonnar (in reality only a mildly updated 1935 design with the addition of T* coating), is really remarkably well corrected both for chromatic and spherical aberration, especially when you consider it was computed on mechanical comptometers and slide rules. There is less purple fringing than on the FLE I tried recently.

Wilson

hillavoider · 27/09/12, 13:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaques

if there is anyone they are not posting many pictures online... I keep looking. Apparently I got in relatively early- and may get a lens sometime in late November. I will be posting a thread about it for sure- and may even do a head to head review (my first for cameras) against the f1 noctilux...

I found one more sample image- with half decent sharpness:

Trying out MS Optical Sonnetar 50/1.1 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

look forward to it, i am unhappy with my voigtlander 1.1 and i am hoping this lens may be better, do you think they would all be sold out?

hillavoider · 27/09/12, 13:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by wlaidlaw

To give folks a baseline, here are a couple of images with a 1954 West German Sonnar on an M9 at f1.5, taken against bright light. Whole image and centre crop so that you can see the sharpness that this 1954 lens is capable of. I think that the Bokeh is quite nice and if the new Sonnetar does as well in both bokeh and sharpness, it will be a good lens.

I think the 54 Sonnar (in reality only a mildly updated 1935 design with the addition of T* coating), is really remarkably well corrected both for chromatic and spherical aberration, especially when you consider it was computed on mechanical comptometers and slide rules. There is less purple fringing than on the FLE I tried recently.

Wilson

thats sharp enough for me... they would be hard to find i presume? how does it compare to a new Zeiss Sonnar f1.5?

wlaidlaw · 27/09/12, 13:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by hillavoider

thats sharp enough for me... they would be hard to find i presume? how does it compare to a new Zeiss Sonnar f1.5?

The 50/f1.5 post war West German Opton Sonnars are medium hard to find but in really good condition like my one, a bit harder. Mine also comes with a near perfect Contax IIA Colour Dial, with a fully serviced shutter, using all original Contax parts (i.e. not Kiev). This is one of the holy grails of RF camera collectors and I was very lucky to find it. Other than converted and one or two prototype lenses, all Stuttgart built f1.5 Sonnar 50's are in Contax fit. If you are offered one in LTM, it is probably faked from a Russian/Ukrainian lens. I use mine on my M bodies with a Amadeo Muscelli adapter.

I don't think you can compare it with the modern Sonnar which was designed to draw in a specific way. Wide open as above, I guess it would be a little crisper over a wider area than the modern Sonnar, although all older Sonnars have a curved field of focus. I would guess that the modern Sonnar would overtake the Opton for sharpness at around f4 to f5.6. I don't have a modern Sonnar to compare, so cannot comment from direct experience. I do have a modern ZM50/f2 Planar. This is a stunningly sharp lens and noticeably better than any of the three 50 Summicrons I have had at various times, albeit it is nearly one and a half times the size of the 11819 Summicron.

Below is a centre crop of the same Absinthe bottle taken with the 50 Planar at f2 on an M9 to compare. Pretty sharp! No adjustments at all other than opening in ACR 7.3

Wilson

jaques · 27/09/12, 17:49

your Sonnar looks nice- I guess you are using one of Amedeo Muscelli's adaptors?

I happen to have the same outfit! My Opton Sonnar is number #48253. And looking back in my image library I found some test shots- mine is a little soft and I think has a little back focus- but as you mention I can't find much cyan fringing to talk of...

I wasn't going to include the Peroni bottle photo- until I remembered the 'bottle at f1' genera is the fastest growing genera for fast lens users!

If this Sonnetar renders like this and is a little cleaner and sharper I think I am going to be very happy....

wlaidlaw · 27/09/12, 18:24

Jaques,

I am using one of Amadeo's adapter. Beautifully made but mine was one of the first bayonet ones he did and he didn't get the coding pits in quite the right place. My Opton is #1126711, so quite a bit later than yours.

I find that the back focus seems to get worse as the level in the Absinthe bottle drops - cannot understand it.

Wilson


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12/09/12, 12:52	#41 (permalink)
jaques Erfahrener Benutzer Join Date: 28/10/09 Posts: 1,375	Re: New M mount 50mm F1.13 coming. well- judging by what has been written on various forums this lens will be in demand for some time to come- and is not an investment of the magnitude of the hyerprime.... for people who change their mind it looks to be at least a good chance of recouping purchase cost- or only taking a moderate loss- unless it turns out to be a total failure. If Zeiss make an f1 lens I am sure it would cause a stir- but I am also sure it would cost at least double what this lens will cost. Last edited by jaques; 12/09/12 at 13:08.

12/09/12, 13:03	#42 (permalink)
menos \| M6 Erfahrener Benutzer Join Date: 08/12/09 Posts: 2,102	Re: New M mount 50mm F1.13 coming. Wilson, we are thinking a lot alike (despite, I have a more positive thinking regarding this Sonnetar). I absolutely share exactly the same thoughts about the 50 Lux ASPH, which I sold for among others the very same reasons - I envy your vintage Sonnar ;-) __________________ Dirk \| teknopunk.com \| 500px \| flickr \| youtube

12/09/12, 15:54	#43 (permalink)
brianv Erfahrener Benutzer Join Date: 31/03/06 Posts: 945	Re: New M mount 50mm F1.13 coming. Given that Cosina discontinued the 50/1.5 Nokton and that the 50/1.1 Nokton is available, I am going to bet that Zeiss will bring out a 50/1.4 Planar type lens in M-Mount. I love my C-Sonnar 50/1.5, but it is not for everyone. I have a lot of Sonnars. My favorite is the pre-war CZJ Sonnar 5cm F1.5. Mounted in a Jupiter-3 focus mount, the throw of the focus from 0.9m to infinity is less than using it in the Contax to Leica mount adapters. Showing remarkable restraint on this new lens. I will be interested in seeing images from it.

12/09/12, 16:31	#44 (permalink)
jaques Erfahrener Benutzer Join Date: 28/10/09 Posts: 1,375	Re: New M mount 50mm F1.13 coming. there are a few more samples posted now... but the subject matter is pretty dull- and the images don[t look that great to me at all... but then I think that is the content more than anything- what do the optical experts think: MS Optical Sonnetar 50mm f/1.1 Test pictures \| Japan Camera Hunter also the lens has a few design quirks: no click stops- and aperture dial moves opposite to normal M lenses- and the focus ring is at the very front of the lens... which seems will make an accidental change of aperture easy... not the best quirks- but workable I guess.

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12/09/12, 20:37	#45 (permalink)
Hannes Lummes Erfahrener Benutzer Join Date: 31/03/11 Location: Helsinki, Finland Posts: 162	Re: New M mount 50mm F1.13 coming. Buuhuuu, bad bokeh up to f1.6. (Note that two of the pictures are in reverse order)

12/09/12, 21:05	#46 (permalink)
brianv Erfahrener Benutzer Join Date: 31/03/06 Posts: 945	Re: New M mount 50mm F1.13 coming. The direction of the aperture is classic Sonnar, no surprise there. Bokeh is subjective- many love the Bokeh of the Canon 50/0.95 used wide-open. F1.5 Sonnars are over-corrected for spherical aberration- this is typical. I would have preferred seeing a test subject with more fine structure to it.

13/09/12, 05:39	#48 (permalink)
jaques Erfahrener Benutzer Join Date: 28/10/09 Posts: 1,375	Re: New M mount 50mm F1.13 coming. a few more sample pictures are trickling out... and one of them is the staple of the fast lens tester: a bottle on a table! Looks kind of interesting too: 首批宮崎 50mm 1.1 本人首度彼露全面睇,港元11000 - 第2頁 - 商户區 - Hong Kong Leica Fan Club - Powered by Discuz!

13/09/12, 08:13	#50 (permalink)
wlaidlaw Erfahrener Benutzer Join Date: 19/12/04 Location: Tourtour, France and Sussex UK Posts: 6,846	Re: New M mount 50mm F1.13 coming. Maybe the taker of the later shots had cranked the coma control in the wrong direction. This would certainly have a significant effect on the appearance of the bokeh. As I posted above, in general lots of coma = nice bokeh. Two of the lenses with the lowest coma, the 50/1.4 ASPH Lux and Zeiss 35/2 Planar G have some of the most unpleasant jagged OOF. I was told by someone who used to work for Zeiss UK, that was one of the reasons that Zeiss opted for a Biogon design for the later ZM 35/2. Interestingly Sony/Zeiss have opted for a Sonnar design for the 35/2 lens on the new full frame Sony RX1. Wilson

13/09/12, 21:53	#51 (permalink)
*farnz* Sponsoring Member Join Date: 28/02/06 Location: London Posts: 10,311	Re: New M mount 50mm F1.13 coming. The sample shots of the stone cat are quite revealing. Ignoring the overall rendering of the bokeh and looking at the discs of light (ie specular highlights) particularly the one above the cats left ear reveals the following: - pleasantly rounded discs, which indicate a reasonably rounded aperture (no hexagons etc) - even distribution of light across the discs (no bright cores) which indicate little longitudinal chromatic aberration and that spherical aberration is fairly well controlled - coloured rims so a bit of transverse chromatic aberration - discs at the edges are also reasonably rounded (no cat's eyes) which indicate very little astigmatism and only mild optical vignetting To me this seems like a reasonably well-corrected lens particularly for a Sonnar design, which seems like good news. Pete. __________________ Eur. Ing. Pete F@rnsworth Live and let live. My tea is brewed in Russell's Teapot.

22/09/12, 06:36	#52 (permalink)
jaques Erfahrener Benutzer Join Date: 28/10/09 Posts: 1,375	Re: New M mount 50mm F1.13 coming. I have been wondering why I immediately put down a deposit on the lens before any detailed or review and more than a handful of images were released... Today i came up with a decent rationalization: Size! Even if this lens is soft with 'bad bokeh to 1.6' - it is tiny for an f1.1: the same size as a 35mm summicron. All other fast lens I have used on the Leica have been large and heavy- which means I am quite likely to leave them at home unless I am really expecting to need the super fast aperture- which means I do not use them as much as I might otherwise. This new Sonnetar is so small you can think of it as a standard 50mm f2 lens for normal use... but if you desire or need a faster aperture it is there. Assuming the lens performs quite well from f2 and upwards- it could be a real winner. I wish it had click stops though...

27/09/12, 08:46	#53 (permalink)
hillavoider Benutzer Join Date: 12/10/11 Posts: 64	Re: New M mount 50mm F1.13 coming. anyone have one of these yet?

27/09/12, 11:10	#54 (permalink)
jaques Erfahrener Benutzer Join Date: 28/10/09 Posts: 1,375	Re: New M mount 50mm F1.13 coming. if there is anyone they are not posting many pictures online... I keep looking. Apparently I got in relatively early- and may get a lens sometime in late November. I will be posting a thread about it for sure- and may even do a head to head review (my first for cameras) against the f1 noctilux... I found one more sample image- with half decent sharpness: Trying out MS Optical Sonnetar 50/1.1 \| Flickr - Photo Sharing!

27/09/12, 18:24	#60 (permalink)
wlaidlaw Erfahrener Benutzer Join Date: 19/12/04 Location: Tourtour, France and Sussex UK Posts: 6,846	Re: New M mount 50mm F1.13 coming. Jaques, I am using one of Amadeo's adapter. Beautifully made but mine was one of the first bayonet ones he did and he didn't get the coding pits in quite the right place. My Opton is #1126711, so quite a bit later than yours. I find that the back focus seems to get worse as the level in the Absinthe bottle drops - cannot understand it. Wilson

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