1959 Leica identification help please?

[NDW]

Hello.

I am new to this forum having just received a Leica that belonged to my late father. I used this camera in my teens and it took great photos. I am having trouble identifying it though and I hope someone can help me.

The serial number is 968589 and this implies it is a IIIG from 1959 but looking at photos it seems closest to the IIIF but different in some respects like the winder is solid - does this make a Leica D or II

Can anyone help me identify it please? Being more into digitial (Sony A350) now I would also appreiate advice on the best place to sell cameras like this and approximate value.

Photos are posted at: Picasa Web Albums - N - Leica Camera

Thanks in advance for any help.

Neil.

[earleygallery]

It's pretty much impossible to give you any meaningful information without looking at the camera as so much depends on condition and there are many variations with Leica equipment.

Look on e bay for similar items or take it to an appropriate dealers for advice.

[aauckland]

It looks like a very early IIIc, (with steps for dioptar and rewind levers), ......obviously the serial # is not the original. (This change could occur if Leica needed to replace a damaged top plate housing).

Regards
Alan

[UliWer]

The rather bad engravings of the serial No. and of the zeros for the times make it look like a russian Leica imitation. It is certainly no IIIg which it should be if the No. was real; neither a IIIf. Most details look like a pre-war IIIc, though the engravings should be really more fine and accurate. Never mind if it still works..

The lens with UVa-Filter looks like a proper Summitar from 1939. If the blades of the diaphragma make a round shape it should be no imitation.

[aauckland]

Yes, UliWer might well be correct, although the engraving of the word Leica does look genuine, and many features look OK for a pre-war IIIc, ...Except the base plate lock lever, which is IIIf or IIIg style.

Regards
Alan

[jc_braconi]

Hello,
For me it is a Leica IIIc war time and the serial must be in 368000 range around 40/41
may be in a tentative to hide the original s/n some one made a tiny scratching : looks like the 3 became a 9,
a magnification of the pict shows that the first and last 9 are different.
the Summitar is from 1939,
everyting looks genuine but in C conditions.

[jc_braconi]

Originally Posted by aauckland

Yes, UliWer might well be correct, although the engraving of the word Leica does look genuine, and many features look OK for a pre-war IIIc, ...Except the base plate lock lever, which is IIIf or IIIg style.

Regards
Alan

Alan, there is no prewar IIIc.
first issue is 1940.

[JasonG]

Morning all,

Depending on (a) where in the world you are/were and (b) when in 1940 it was made then a IIIc could be prewar. Australia joined in in June 1940 so Alan could well be right. In fact, Taylor maintained that there were a couple of separate wars going on in Indochina and Europe but the Second World War didn't really start until the conflicts joined in 1941.

Tra

Jason

[jc_braconi]

Originally Posted by JasonG

Morning all,

Depending on (a) where in the world you are/were and (b) when in 1940 it was made then a IIIc could be prewar.

Germany started the war in September 1939.

[JasonG]

Kind of, though everyone didn't join the party until later.

[earleygallery]

Having seen the photos, yes its a lllc but as above the engraving of the serial no is not correct.

The lllc is a good users camera, as is the lens if free of haze/fungus. A Clean Lube Adjust will cost iro £150 for the body and £50 for the lens. If you look up the items on ebay you will find what recent examples have sold for. Dealers prices will always be higher as they will g'tee the equipment.

[jc_braconi]

Originally Posted by earleygallery

Having seen the photos, yes its a lllc but as above the engraving of the serial no is not correct.
.

James, please check my supposition above :.# 6

[earleygallery]

Hi JC, I think you are right the first digit is a 3. Maybe the line is simply dirt or as you say its been altered for some reason.

[Philippe D.]

Originally Posted by earleygallery

Hi JC, I think you are right the first digit is a 3. Maybe the line is simply dirt or as you say its been altered for some reason.

JC is perfectly right. A very good detective indeed.
The original number is 363539
And it is inventoried as a Leica IIIc from 1940

Who know why the changes have been made ?

[NDW]

Thank you everyone for your comments and great detective work.

Looking at the serial number after the suggestion then you are correct and it is 368589. I do not think the number was intentionally changed but there is a stratch that confused me. This also explains the red shutter curtain if this if from 1940. Is has a step for the advance/rewind lever so is "wartime" according to Pacific Rim Camera info.

Thanks again everyone.

Neil.

[aauckland]

Your quite correct JC, very well detected, and appoligies for my, (pre-war), slip, my earlier post being more accurate:
"It looks like a very early IIIc, (with steps for dioptar and rewind levers)"

But, isn't the base plate non original?

Regards
Alan

[David Hughes]

Hi,

Interesting in that it has a Summitar on it as they didn't start shifting them until late 1939 (well, that's for Great Britain) and certain events stopped many being exported. The number being 1939/40 - ish.

So it looks like an early and fairly rare one.

If it were mine I'd spend some money on getting it completely overhauled and cleaned. It shouldn't break the bank compared to it's value as a camera. And the lens will still turn in a good performance.

Regards, David

[jc_braconi]

Originally Posted by David Hughes

Hi,

Interesting in that it has a Summitar on it as they didn't start shifting them until late 1939 (well, that's for Great Britain) and certain events stopped many being exported. The number being 1939/40 - ish.

So it looks like an early and fairly rare one.

First batch of Summitar, 3000, were issued in 1938 from 487 001 to 490 000,
Second batch of Summitar, 5200 were issued in 1939 from 504 801 to 510 000
this Summitar 520 813 is part of third batch 10 500 issued in 1939 from 520 001 to 530 500.

[David Hughes]

Originally Posted by jc_braconi

First batch of Summitar, 3000, were issued in 1938 from 487 001 to 490 000,
Second batch of Summitar, 5200 were issued in 1939 from 504 801 to 510 000
this Summitar 520 813 is part of third batch 10 500 issued in 1939 from 520 001 to 530 500.

Many thanks.

I assumed they'd come out earlier than 1939 but hadn't seen anything to confirm it. The earliest mention I've seen was a couple of advert's in "Miniature Camera World" of September 1939. Both advert's were about the new lens arriving at last. In the March/April 1939 edition of "Leica News and Technique" there is an article on lenses in general but no mention of the Summitar, only the Summar.

The R G Lewis advert. (ibid) said that they'd had a lot of enquiries about the new lens from people with connections overseas. Most of those I've seen advertised (these days) were in the USA and so I assume they eventually got a bigger batch and, of course, Wetzlar was in the post-war American Zone.

BTW the price then was £20 5s 0d in England but the lens is not mentioned in the Leitz' NY 1939 catalogue. The NY catalogue had a supplementary price list printed in 1941 when the price of the lens was US $160.

I've copies of the booklet "Handle the Leica" of August 1938, London, and October 1938, NY, but neither mention the Summitar; only the Elmar, Summar and Xenon.

So my guess is that they were released first of all in Germany and only later on for export. I'd be interested to learn of any early mention of the lens. Perhaps Leitz produced a single page leaflet about it but I've not traced one. (And what it would cost on ebay frightens me; based on the price I paid for the folded sheet "Supplementary Directions for the Standard Leica".)

Sorry, I seem to have rambled on.

Regards, David

[digger1914]

Originally Posted by JasonG

Morning all,

Depending on (a) where in the world you are/were and (b) when in 1940 it was made then a IIIc could be prewar. Australia joined in in June 1940 so Alan could well be right. In fact, Taylor maintained that there were a couple of separate wars going on in Indochina and Europe but the Second World War didn't really start until the conflicts joined in 1941.

Tra

Jason

Sorry Jason, Australia declared war in September 1939, not June 1940.