Ilford Witness & Dallmeyer Septac 2" f1.5

[dkpeterborough]

Have blown my replacement car fund on this beauty as was a rare opportunity to obtain a very rare camera and lens. Not a Leica but was partly designed by an ex Leitz worker. Will try and add another image and short write-up:

[andybarton]

Can you enlighten those of us who have never heard of this before?

Thanks.

[dkpeterborough]

Here is my write-up on the Witness and Septac lens:

The Ilford Witness was initially a design exercise in 1945/47 by two German-Jewish refugees ... ex-Leitz employee Robert Sternberg and ex-Zeiss employee D.A. Rothschild ... thus it had attributes of both Leica and Zeiss Ikon Contax rangefinder cameras ... at the time the Leica IIIC and Contax IIa cameras were just resuming production after WW2 ... and all new cameras were very scarce and expensive. In the late 1940's SLR cameras were still under development and not in general use thus 1930's/40's Leica and Contax rangefinder designs and Rolleiflex/Rolleicord TLR's, and 5x4 Speed Graphics were the tools of serious photo-journalists. Sternberg and Rothschild approached Ilford in 1947 .... Ilford wanted to develop a range of cameras after the war and thus agreed to manufacture the Witness.

The Witness was manufactured for Ilford by Peto Scott in Weybridge, Surrey. Postwar difficulties delayed production and the first 250 cameras ordered were not produced until 1951. They sold for £112 complete with a 2 inch f1.9 Dallmeyer Super Six lens ... that was a considerable sum of money probably equivalent to at least 10 weeks average UK wages.

Sales were slow and Ilford decided to concentrate on less complex cameras eg the Advocate ... thus production of the Witness ceased in 1953. The last of the cameras were 'remaindered' via Dollands and sold off at £80 each. The camera was not a commercial success partly because of poor marketing and partly because of under-development eg lack of lenses and accessories compared to Zeiss and Leitz cameras ... and partly due to the lack of ££ in people's pockets.

But, it was a landmark quality camera equal and in some respects better than the equivalent Leica and Contax models. The few that now survive are amongst the very most collectible, and usable postwar cameras. The shutter is just as quiet as a Leica and the rangefinder has a wider base thus is more accurate.

This particular camera is fitted with a very scarce British "Dallmeyer" f1.5 2 inch 'SEPTAC' lens with the unique Witness 'interrupted thread' screw fitting. This was a very fast lens at that time and matched the equivalent fast Leitz and Zeiss designs ... but the normal lens supplied for the Witness was the Dallmeyer 2 inch f1.9 Super Six. The 'interrupted thread' is just visible in the lens picture .. the 39mm screw thread has 3 'gaps' or 'slots' cut into it enabling the thread to be 'bayoneted' onto the body ... but the similarly interrupted body thread will also accept normal L39mm thread lenses. The Septac lens focuses down to 3 feet in normal use but can also be 'tripped' to extend and focus to 1.8 feet ... but the extension is not rangefinder coupled.

I acquired the camera two weeks ago and will be putting a film through it asap .. the shutter and rangefinder were serviced prior to purchase. The serial number is 5025 and I have traced serial numbers for six other Witness cameras sold since 1997 up to S/N 5329 ... the accepted total production is circa 350 cameras but probably only a few survive in full working order after 55 years. When sold originally many would have had a hard professional life. The camera has an Ilford fitted leather case which has helped to protect it over the years but the case is currently under repair by a saddler. Yesterday (16 June) I bid on Ebay in USA for an original Witness instruction manual ... but my last minute bid of $60 was already beaten and did not even appear ... the manual sold for $80 .. so now will have to be content with a photocopy from Oldtimer Cameras.

[dkpeterborough]

More pictures

[bill]

Ooo...

Can I get a Witness...?

Regards,

Bill

[zebra]

Congratulations!

More Info here:
Ilford History and Chronology

and here:
Ilford Witness

Peter

[Rona|d]

WOW! Congratulations. Never expected to see one here. What a beauty!

Have fun and USE it!

[elansprint72]

I believe that posting images from the rare beauty would be well within the spirit of the rules of this forum, I look forward to seeing some soon.

[vic vic]

wow duncan... coooooooooooooool
post some pics when u can. it looks like it says "touch me". very sexy camera

peter, cool links

[k_g_wolf]

>> Duncan


thx for this post !


Learned a lot about british postwar camera- efforts today ...


Enjoy !


Best

[luigi bertolotti]

NICE NICE : the "Leica-inspired-cameras" that are not trivial "Leica-copies" are very very interesting cameras: one day in Paris I saw a FOCA at a nice shop next to Montparnasse Cemetery... it was very fine... does some of our french friends have some pictures of it to show ?

[bill]

Originally Posted by dkpeterborough

The Witness was manufactured for Ilford by Peto Scott in Weybridge, Surrey.

OhmiGod...

I've just actually had the time to read this, instead of just drooling over the photos.

My family (on my Mother's side) lived in Weybridge from the 1930s to the early 1970s. My Grandfather was invalided out of the Royal Navy in the inter-war years and was Chief Maintenance Electrician at Vickers during the Second World War. He knew Barnes Wallis, who worked there, and told many tales of his time there. After the War, redundancies were necessary, and he was unfortunate. The policy was to make redundant every second employee, based on their clock number. The man with the number just in front of his had passed away just before, so his number was skipped, and my Grandfather was next.

He then went to work at Peto Scott. I remember little of this, but I know he worked there for some ten years after the War, so he would certainly have been there at the time. The funny thing is, as a child, I never knew how Peto Scott was written, as I only ever heard it spoken about. I had it in my head that it was "Pete O'Scots" and in some way thought it was a man's name.

Thank you so much for this insight into my own past, and that of my family.

Regards,

Bill

[dkpeterborough]

Pleased to clarify the name Bill ... I know Weybridge from many years ago (1969) when I was a London Country bus mechanic and trained at Addlestone .... and I lived in Fetcham near Leatherhead.

Dunk

[Tarlair]

Hi
Have you any idea how many original Daron lenses were made, and what sort of price
I would have to pay for one

Many thanks

[dkpeterborough]

Originally Posted by Tarlair

Hi
Have you any idea how many original Daron lenses were made, and what sort of price
I would have to pay for one

Many thanks

Very few 5cm f2.9 Daron lenses appear to have been released but one was used in the Miniature Camera Magazine test in April 1951 ... I have not seen a copy of that test ... but a copy of the AP Test is available from Oldtimer Cameras.

Would appear the chances of finding a Daron lens are very slim .. I will check my old Christies catalogues where I found 4 Witness cameras sold from 1997 onwards to see if any Daron lenses were included. Mahendra Modi at MW Classic has a good knowledge of Daron lenses and he might be able to advise about prices.

As they are so scarce would imagine that no dealer would offer a Daron lens for less than £1.5K and might be much more if the demand is there.

Dunk

[Tarlair]

Hi

Thanks for the info, I will give them a call

regards

[John E Robertson]

MW had this Daron lens for sale a few weeks ago



think its sold now.
I have and use the Witness' little brother the Advocate. These were used on the Successful 1953 Everest Expedition.

[dkpeterborough]

Now I recall seeing the Daron lens at MW ... think it sold for more than £1000 ... but not sure of the exact amount

Is the picture one of MW's ??

I'm looking for an f2.8 version of the Advocate.

Dunk

[John E Robertson]

Originally Posted by dkpeterborough

Now I recall seeing the Daron lens at MW ... think it sold for more than £1000 ... but not sure of the exact amount

Is the picture one of MW's ??

I'm looking for an f2.8 version of the Advocate.

Dunk

Advocate was only made with either f4.5 or f3.5 lenses. Either made by Dallmeyer or Wray. there is an Advocate list on the web somewhere. The bodies were in the main white/cream, but there are rare versions with black (looks horrible) or khaki (looks even worse!!) If you have seen one with a f2.8 it has been modified by somone!!
Yes the pictures are from MW. My Advocate was my fathers and has been in the family since new, I have the original box,instructions and publicity flier. Its a late f3.5 synched model with Dallmeyer lens.

[dkpeterborough]

Originally Posted by John E Robertson

Advocate was only made with either f4.5 or f3.5 lenses. Either made by Dallmeyer or Wray. there is an Advocate list on the web somewhere. The bodies were in the main white/cream, but there are rare versions with black (looks horrible) or khaki (looks even worse!!) If you have seen one with a f2.8 it has been modified by somone!!
Yes the pictures are from MW. My Advocate was my fathers and has been in the family since new, I have the original box,instructions and publicity flier. Its a late f3.5 synched model with Dallmeyer lens.

Thanks for the clarification ... I had better reconsider getting the f3.5 version seen recently ... at the time I thought "No ... wait for a f2.8 "... confusion arose from thinking that as they did two models then one was f3.5 and one f2.8 ... so will retrace my searches

Thanks John

Just got the Ilford Witness leather case back from the saddler after repair ... think he was a bit surprised I wa spending £25 on repairing an old camera case ... approx 30% of the case needed restitching

Dunk