the BROWN Leica IIIf RD - factory-original?

[David Allespach]

I was making inquires sometime ago about the possibility of a factory-original IIIf RD with a brown cover. Here are fresh photos of the camera in question. Certainly looks 'brown' and original to me.
Comments welcome. David

[bill]

Woooo....! That is one SHINY camera...! That, before anything else, makes me suspicious. Everything looks to be in the right places, though. That lens is curious - my 3.5cm doesn't protrude like that - is that a close-up/add on?

I'll stop speculating and let the experts decide!

Regards,

Bill

[michael_boylan]

Yep, there definitely something different about that front element. There is also something different about the accessory shoe; on mine there are two raised spring-like strips either side of the fixing screws. These seem to be missing on this example, although it is a bit hard to see.

[doubice]

This looks either like a IIf converted to a IIIf or, a IIIf which had its accessory shoe replaced. This simpler sprung shoe was isued on the IIf. A simple search of a Leica serial number database will reveal the origins of this camera.

As to the 'brown' covering - I have seen this in the past. Sometimes the vulcanite reacts with the environment of gets cleaned with the wrong solvent and turns a dark brown, similar to what we see here.

The protrusion on the lens is either a filter or, remnants of one. If memory serves me correctly, the 35mm and 50mm Elmars had an 18mm filter thread and Leitz used to make filters and close-up lenses in that size. Heliopan also used to make 18mm filters on special request.

Having looked at the picture again, the protrusion looks like the mount from a Leitz close-up lens, code named ELPIK (again - the usual disclaimer for my feeble memory...)

Best,

Jan

[doubice]

Well, as per this site Leica Screw Mount Serial #'s Sorted by Number , serial no. 630 116 started its life as a IIIf. So - either this camera was modified or, simply received a different accessory shoe.

Best,

Jan

[David Allespach]

Shiny? Yes - hardly used - the gentleman died shortly after receiving it directly from the factory. I am waiting on photos of 3 additional lenses and scans of the complete, original documentation.

A well-known Leica historian had this to say [name omitted] "Beautiful covering ! It may just be an official Leitz factory job done on special request. Stranger things have happened. I wonder if this is brown all the way through or a well done brown overlay over the black vulcanite. As far as can determine Leitz did not do such work OFFICIALLY , however, quietly and discreetly , perhaps for a special friend of the Firm. In any event this very nice IIIf will always be a fascinating conversation piece capable of producing beautiful photos. Enjoy it and thank you for allowing me to "see" this artifact.

[luigi bertolotti]

Vulcanite covering is not the problem : can be original, can be "re-colored" by time & sun (but so uniform...), can be 3rd party... but some expert is really necessary to adress the issues on the body :

- Accessory shoe : looks not original, screws look non-Leitz standard : why ?
- LETTERING of the engraving ... I saw number of items of IIIfs from this batch (615001 to 650000, the first of IIIf Red Dial - shutter with 1/25-50-75 - no self timer): seem to remember (not sure) the std. engraving is with "dotted" DRP (D.R.P.) and no "Gmbh" ; my item (later, 725.xxx, self timer) has "DBP" "GMBH" and the whole lettering in capital... and this is standard... but, as I say, some expert is really needed to speak of this particular.

The "protruding" Elmar 3,5 cm is another problem... but isn't clear if it's a removable addon (with LENS ?) or not: the quoted ELPIK was for the Elmar 50 (together with ELPIK and ELPET, different dipotre): there wasn't a similar close-up lens for the Elmar 35.

[wizard]

Originally Posted by luigi bertolotti

The "protruding" Elmar 3,5 cm is another problem... but isn't clear if it's a removable addon (with LENS ?) or not: the quoted ELPIK was for the Elmar 50 (together with ELPIK and ELPET, different dipotre): there wasn't a similar close-up lens for the Elmar 35.

Luigi,

the protruding device is clearly either a screw in filter or screw in close up lens. Filter thread for both the 35mm and the 50mm Elmar lenses of that vintage is 19mm. B+W still makes filters for these lenses on request, I have two of them, and they look exactly like this.

Best,

Andreas

[jc_braconi]

I think it can be a IIIf which have the top plate replaced by a IIf and re engraved with its s/n or a IIf where a slow speed was added, for the engravings you can see the evolution on the pict I add, next for the protuding ring, if it is a filter holder or close up lens it is not from Leitz, look on the second pict, genuine ones are engraved and I let you appreciate the shape & size.
In fact I saw it later so I add one more pict showing the close up lens screwed on the Elmar and we can see that the diameter is larger than the diaphrag ring, on the brown leather one this ring is smaller than the Elmar ring.

[luigi bertolotti]

Very precise as always JC... what about the lettering ? You show an item with the same lettering of the "brown vulcanite" (undotted DRP + Gmbh) but seems to me is ABOVE 650xxxx ... do you know if there is a firm relation with style of engraving and the "original" numbering ? (I mean "original" in the sense that if, as you speculate, this camera has had the top replaced-re engraved, nothing can be said about the lettering).

Me too have some filter for Elmars... all have Leitz engravings.. agree that the ring (filter ?) in front of the Elmar 35 is not original... maybe a B+W according to Andreas' observation.

[jc_braconi]

Originally Posted by luigi bertolotti

do you know if there is a firm relation with style of engraving and the "original" numbering ? (I mean "original" in the sense that if, as you speculate, this camera has had the top replaced-re engraved, nothing can be said about the lettering).

Luigi,
The only thing I know for sure is that with Leitz, the exception is the rule !

If I ask this to the Leica Historica members I will get tenths of answers .. differents.
with the time we note what we found but we do not have always explaination.

You do not need to be a special customer to get exotics, just ask, wait...and paid !