your opinion! Black Factory IIIc- no serial # real-fake?

[Weltur]

Hi there,

i am hoping people here can help me. i am considering getting myself a an LTM leica. which if i like them may turn into many (going on my past experiance with other camera makers). However i coarse i do not want to end up with a fake! but the unusual cameras interest me from a historical point as does pre-war and war time models which many of my other camera are as well (pre-war that is)

this is a camera i have been considering- It is said to be by the seller,, to be an early war IIIC with unusual black top/bottom and chrome fittings. It has no serial #. And is engraved engraved Leitz-Egentum (Leitz Property). i notice that the letter 'I" is missing from the word Eigentum but i dont speak German and dont know if this is significant. it also has flash sync, however it does not operate.

i am wondering if folk here can throw any light on what this is? is it genuine? Fake? or just some interesting Leica property camera upgraded? for what reason?

[andybarton]

No expert here, but the quality of the turnings on the dials and knobs doesn't look Russian, but 1000th setting doesn't look right at all (I thought these only went to 500th, but would stand corrected)

Photoethnography.com - Classic Cameras

The lack of SN would also worry me, even if this were a factory special or demo piece.

Someone here will be able to help I am sure.

Is this being offered for a sensible price?

If you are going to start collecting these, you need to do a lot of research first, as there are thousands of duds out there.

[Weltur]

well its within my budget..i think its on the expensive side for IIIc but if it hasnt been just taken to one side and repainted, it appears mint as they discribe it. if it has been taken to one side and painted it looks a dam good job! its under 2000 and comparable with what i see red curtain leicas or IIIg's going for on eb*y in lesser condition, although its without lens..i dont mind paying extra for something in mint condition...dont like parting with the money! but appreciate that many things can be wrong with eb*y purchases....I've so much experiance with that it hurts lol

the IIIg's i am interested in also for the useability of them, but this camera if genuine appeals to me for its odd circumstances and earlier year of manufacture

[andybarton]

It looks unbelievably clean. Lots of "buts" and "ifs" in your last post...

Under 2000 what? Bart? Yen? Canadian Dollars? US Dollars? Euros?

The 1000th really worries me, but it could have been upgraded 850103.IIIcK_grey.jpg photo - Equipment Database photos at pbase.com Note the "Wetzlar" on this pbase model, plus the Z in lieu of B shutter speed. The knurls round the windows don't look right, the silver screws on the front of the camera and the shutter release button are all "wrong"

I'd say this is a definite re-spray job at the very least.

[bill]

It smells wrong, but I don't think it's a Russian. Is there a photo of the rangefinder cam? That's the usual dead giveaway.

What it looks like is a later model that has been professionally and misleadingly painted - possibly the reason for the disappearing s/n. The lettering is just too clean, too bright. The missing i is also a bit of a suspicious thing - was it letraset? Has it literally dropped off?

Rule #1 - if something looks too good to be true, it is.

Regards,

Bill

[Canfred]

Hi Andrew, I just compared this with my IIIc this could be a fake
first do I see a DBP under the Leica ? It should be DRP as well as that there should be no GMBH either.
If you want to be sure get in contact with Charles Bridgewood in Mitcham ( Adelaide ) he can asess it , I have his Phone number but he is in the book not sure about listing his number here.
I hope this helps.
Manfred

[bill]

Agreed about the GMBH. Leitz didn't put that on cameras until the 1950s as far as I can see. That flash synch also looks too modern.

I think it's a mongrel. I've also never heard of a "Leitz-Eigentum" version.

Avoid, I think.

Regards,

Bill

[Weltur]

those are the only pictures i have at the moment. i have asked for more but at this point i have had no reply.

under 2000 AU dollars (being abit vauge there) about $1600 US i think the seller has on it.

why does the 1000th worry you Andy? they did have 1000th didnt they.

i notice it has the platform under the advance rewind lever which makes it pre 400,0000
flash sych obviously is add on --i cant figure that out because it doesnt operate,
presumably it doesnt have red curtain or i would have thought the seller would have mentioned it

[Canfred]

You are quite right Andy , but then the shutter speeds do match mine
the 1/1000 shutter was introduced 1935 with the model IIIa (G)
Cheers Manfred

[earleygallery]

Well, the lllc does have speeds to 1/1000 but the shutter dial should be smaller. The lllc didn't have flash sync but of course many cameras were updated later.

I don't think its a fake per se, but its not right at all. I would guess that its some DIY attempt at an 'a la carte' lllc, probably fairly recent too. The lack of attention to detail alone would put me off.

Not with a bargepole!

[andybarton]

1/1000th

I stand corrected, , but wouldn't spend £800 on this if I had a million.

What's with that collar around the shutter speed dial? Is that normal?

[earleygallery]

2000 Australian Dollars? Someone is seriously trying it on.

[Weltur]

Originally Posted by Canfred

Hi Andrew, I just compared this with my IIIc this could be a fake
first do I see a DBP under the Leica ? It should be DRP as well as that there should be no GMBH either.
If you want to be sure get in contact with Charles Bridgewood in Mitcham ( Adelaide ) he can asess it , I have his Phone number but he is in the book not sure about listing his number here.
I hope this helps.
Manfred

thank you Manfred.. i think i will, it sounds like a good idea. i will look up his number when i get the chance...doesnt sound wise to post it publicly ...you could email it to tho.

thanks so far to everyone...its starting to make me think its a bad deal and you all have saved me money and disappointment

[earleygallery]

It aint fair dinkum, don't be a drongo mate!

[Canfred]

Right just for the record there was a non chrome version quite rare
introduced since chrome was hard to get in wartime. Those where gray paint. As to Leitz Eigentum there is such a thing Leica had cameras set aside for testing purpose in factory, the lettering looks right but its so easy to forge any jeweler can do it in minutes.
The IIIc comes from the number 350 000 til 425 000 and the step on this one also looks right. My opinion is this is a somewhat clumsy attempt lifting value to the level a gray paint would have.
The IIIc is sold for around $ 300 - 400 US in excellent condition .
As I said Charles will have the answer , I send you his number in private.
Manfred

[Weltur]

Originally Posted by andybarton

1/1000th

I stand corrected, , but wouldn't spend £800 on this if I had a million.

What's with that collar around the shutter speed dial? Is that normal?

i didnt notice the collar! is that some kind of EV system (exposure scale linked to speed)-probably not-just a stab in the dark from me.

as for prices...well i havnt seen much in the leica LTM so far that is cheap and doesnt look like it needs vast amounts of money to spent to bring it back to par....its kinda depressing lol

[earleygallery]

Originally Posted by Weltur

i didnt notice the collar! is that some kind of EV system (exposure scale linked to speed)-probably not-just a stab in the dark from me.

as for prices...well i havnt seen much in the leica LTM so far that is cheap and doesnt look like it needs vast amounts of money to spent to bring it back to par....its kinda depressing lol

Someone has fitted the shutter dial from a lllf. If you look at a lllf it has a flash sync dial under the shutter dial, which that someone here has replicated and screwed onto the top plate of this lllc (it has settings to sync with different types of flash).

I would avoid buying an LTM from e bay unless you know the seller. Much better to buy from a trusted source. There are plenty of nice LTM's available through the usual dealers, and for sensible money with g'tees.

[Canfred]

Hi Andrew the collar under the dial is flash syncro time , its the same as the IIIf probably converted by Leitz at some stage.
This alone will lower the value since its no longer genuine .
My advise give it a miss in favor of a nice IIIf Charles may even have one for you . these are sold for around $ 500 in perfect order.
Manfred

[Canfred]

Hi Andrew , here a little shot of my IIIf the red dial flash syncro version.
This one is the one you should look for. The lens is a current special SM issue.
Manfred

[luigi bertolotti]

Andrew, the advice is simple: stay away from this camera : the best it can be is an item rebuilt from parts of different-generation Leicas, the worst, a "fake-for-collectors" (they are a different breed from the "fake-for-users").
Cameras with "Leitz Eigentum" engraving are well known : it means "property of Leitz".. internal use, test & so... and sometimes they do have some difference from the "standard" models, but this item is a mess : the GMBH engraving, and the whole lettering of it... the sync ring, the absence of s/n, even the RF rings... lot of WRONG details.
I do not know if you have scrutinized the Leitz collector market : I follwed it for >20 years and can give you a pair of sure advices :

- You can find good, standard, original items of the prewar-war period at decent prices (say, today in the 250 to 500 Euros range... IIIc, IIIb for instance)

- Special models, if ORIGINAL and in good conditions, are always costly. At the moment, for instance, Leicashop of Wien has for sale a wartime IIIck "Luftwaffen Eigentum" : looks fine... they are a serious dealer... and they ask 3800 Euros.