Unique M5 prototype!

[giordano]

Originally Posted by luigi bertolotti

- Big Selenium meter: I suppose it is not an "auto exposure camera" in proper sense, but a "meter coupled" one... don't see how the time could be automatically set with an "unpowered" body.

Luigi, there were quite a few cameras with auto exposure using selenium photocells, starting (I believe) in the 1950s. E.g. Olympus Pen EE, Rollei Magic. The basic idea was to that as you began to press the shutter button, a moving bar clamped the exposure meter needle in its current position. Further movement of the button pushed a cam or lever into contact with the (now locked) needle, setting the exposure along the way.

As far as I know, most of these cameras had fixed or manually-set shutter speeds, with only the aperture controlled by the auto mechanism. But some seem to have had the equivalent of a programmed auto mode.

[giordano]

Originally Posted by luigi bertolotti

- Ok the Compur... but the time ring extends from 1/2000 to 30' !!! I guess it's only for metering purpose... never saw a Compur with such capabilities, and, btw, the "real" M5 had also a time scale that extended to long exposure times, even if the shutter did the usual 1- 1/1000 (or maybe 1/2 ? I confuse with CL, maybe...)

Looking again at the pictures, I wonder if it's a Compur (or Prontor) at all. As you say, one's never seen a mechanical Compur with 1/2000. But also, why is the 125 setting in red? If it's a Compur, one has flash synch at all speeds, no need for a special red speed.

Also, there are two flash sync sockets on the body - while all traditional Compurs have just one synch socket and you use the M-X-V switch to select the synchronisation one needs. And there is no sign of electrical connections in the lens mount for the two synch sockets. And the body appears to have provision for a M or Leicaflex style self-timer ... which is not needed with a Compur.

All this makes me wonder if the shutter speed ring around the lens mount actually controls a shutter like the one on the Leicaflex (which must have been in prototype at this time).

- There is that strange "folding lever"... I guess it's some mechanism to be able to change the f/stop-time couple without changing the EV... Zeiss used this system on several of its cameras (Contina, Contaflex "auto"...)

Not sure about that. The lever looks as if it's designed for one-way operation with spring return, not for an adjustment that has to move both ways. When I first noticed it I wondered if it was a rapid-winder, a sort of radial Leicavit (or a version of the mechanism on the contemporary Werra 35mm cameras).

I'd never throw away the money they speak of (neither 1/10 of it, for myself... ), but I would be VERY pleased if I could have it in my hands for some minutes... pity it's in Hong Kong...

Me too!

[earleygallery]

Originally Posted by jc_braconi

and what do you think about a piece of wood at € 8000.00
Photo Arsenal

What sort of lens mount is that? The optics would appear to have rather bad haze.

[JBA]

Originally Posted by xjr

It has no historical,practical or even curiosity value...it is a wreckage . . . Ludicrous !!!

That was my exact thought when I came across this on Ebay yesterday.

[harryzet]

the seller is known for his ludicrous prices

[luigi bertolotti]

Originally Posted by giordano

Looking again at the pictures, I wonder if it's a Compur (or Prontor) at all. As you say, one's never seen a mechanical Compur with 1/2000. But also, why is the 125 setting in red? If it's a Compur, one has flash synch at all speeds, no need for a special red speed.

Also, there are two flash sync sockets on the body - while all traditional Compurs have just one synch socket and you use the M-X-V switch to select the synchronisation one needs. And there is no sign of electrical connections in the lens mount for the two synch sockets. And the body appears to have provision for a M or Leicaflex style self-timer ... which is not needed with a Compur.

All this makes me wonder if the shutter speed ring around the lens mount actually controls a shutter like the one on the Leicaflex (which must have been in prototype at this time).



Not sure about that. The lever looks as if it's designed for one-way operation with spring return, not for an adjustment that has to move both ways. When I first noticed it I wondered if it was a rapid-winder, a sort of radial Leicavit (or a version of the mechanism on the contemporary Werra 35mm cameras).



Me too!

John, thanks for your observations... I like a lot to speculate on such questions. Thinking better of the issue of the "shutter", really is questionable if it's a Compur or even if ANY blade shutter it's actually present into the lens... the description can be at all misleading... the position of the sync sockets, the standard advance lever, the possible self-timer, make think of a standard Leica shutter (maybe, as you say, a Leicaflex-like one). Pity.. could have been sufficient a slightly different and clearer view in one of the pics to reveal it...

A noticeable absence (I don't know how I didn't realize before)... WHERE IS the diaphragm setting ? No sign of f/stops on the lens... but the diaphragm IS present (pic)... and this goes toward the question the maybe it is really an automatic exposure camera, time-priority, with some rather complex way of diaphragm actuator : one sets the time, and some kind of mechanism actuates the diaph. through some coupling built into the mount... maybe with a mechanical help provided, for instance, by the movement of the advance lever...or the pressure on the release button. I seem to remember that the Konica Autoreflex T (one of the few SLR with auto exp time-priority, at its time) had something like this. The folding lever, in this context, is really a mistery...

Oh, well, maybe it's simply a non-operative prototype made with Frankenstein-like parts just to evaluate the appearance...

[Philippe D.]

Hi Jo,

Originally Posted by jhild

Is Leica is in such a desperate need of fresh money they have to sell their history? I hope they aren´t.
(...)
I wouldn´t be surprised if a rich Chinese is the new owner...

On the German forum, it said by Holger1 that those pieces where sold 2003 from the museum to an Asian collector. So a rich Chinese was already the owner.
http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-...ca-museum.html

The museum refused to buy back from him, so Boris is now the one who got the business.

[giordano]

Originally Posted by luigi bertolotti

John, thanks for your observations... I like a lot to speculate on such questions. Thinking better of the issue of the "shutter", really is questionable if it's a Compur or even if ANY blade shutter it's actually present into the lens... the description can be at all misleading... the position of the sync sockets, the standard advance lever, the possible self-timer, make think of a standard Leica shutter (maybe, as you say, a Leicaflex-like one).

Yes. In the 4th photo, where the diaphragm is clearly visible, you would expect to see the closed shutter blades immediately behind it.

A noticeable absence (I don't know how I didn't realize before)... WHERE IS the diaphragm setting ? No sign of f/stops on the lens...

Actually they are just visible in the last photo. The aperture control is the narrow ring just in front of the index mark for the shutter speeds. The index mark also serves for the aperture: the f/ markings are partially visible and it's just possible to see that the lens is set between f/11 and f/16. Note that the aperture ring turns in the opposite direction from Leica-normal, so that turning aperture and shutter rings together changes the speed/aperture combination but not the EV.

[luigi bertolotti]

Originally Posted by giordano

Yes. In the 4th photo, where the diaphragm is clearly visible, you would expect to see the closed shutter blades immediately behind it.



Actually they are just visible in the last photo. The aperture control is the narrow ring just in front of the index mark for the shutter speeds. The index mark also serves for the aperture: the f/ markings are partially visible and it's just possible to see that the lens is set between f/11 and f/16. Note that the aperture ring turns in the opposite direction from Leica-normal, so that turning aperture and shutter rings together changes the speed/aperture combination but not the EV.

... I needed your post to find them... didn't notice... but being in that postion, I continue to think that the "mistery lever" has something to do with the two rings movement ("unlocking" the f ring to have the diaph actuated by the "auto exp system"... "auto - non auto"... ?)

[JBA]

Originally Posted by harryzet

the seller is known for his ludicrous prices

Believe me, I've noticed. My heart sinks a little bit every time I see something desirable that they're holding for ransom. I can invariably find the same thing cheaper in Tokyo, which is not exactly known for bargain-basement prices.

Originally Posted by Philippe D.

Hi Jo,
On the German forum, it said by Holger1 that those pieces where sold 2003 from the museum to an Asian collector. So a rich Chinese was already the owner.
http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-...ca-museum.html

The museum refused to buy back from him, so Boris is now the one who got the business.

That's pretty funny.