Finding the rangefinder 'windows' on an M2.

[pippy]

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I'm in the process of trying to get my M-2 in a slightly more useable state ("slightly"....Ha-Ha-Ha...).

'How Hard Can It Be?' came to mind and so....

 

First-off;

I have a peculiar (I think!) problem.

After one particularly severe drop 20-odd years ago I 'lost' one of my viewfinder focussing 'windows' from the viewfinder. Careless of me, I know.

Having checked, it isn't the one supplied by the 'small window' as I can see that one move when the focussing arm is actuated.

 

I've removed the top-plate and had a look to see if there is anything obviously awry but I'm fully aware that I don't know what, exactly, I'm looking for nor where, exactly, to look in order to find it. I'm of a mind that I can recalibrate the windows if only I knew where I should be looking.

Nothing is loose; nothing is rattling around and nothing has fallen off so the thing should be repairable. I'm reasonably handy at stripping-down and re-building mechanical 'bits' so the inside of the r/f unit holds no fears.

 

Anyone have any clues to offer me?

 

Secondly;

Does anyone know anywhere good in the UK to have a serial number engraved on to a top-plate?

I managed to acquire a NOS M-2 top-plate from Red Dot (Thanks, R-D!) and would like to have the original serial number re-instated.

 

FWIW here's a snap taken (on the M-8.2) an hour or so ago showing the 'story so far'. having stripped-off what was left of the Vulcanite.

Replacement leatherette is on it's way as of today.

 

Philip.

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Edited December 19, 2014 by pippy

[pippy]

...Anyone have any clues to offer me?...

Hmmmm......

Four days and not a peep.

 

I'll take that as a 'No' then, shall I?....

 

 

Philip.

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[jaapv]

I suppose you mean the framelie window. It is probably just stuck.

You should be able to deduce the location from this diagram:

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Edited December 23, 2014 by jaapv

[bocaburger]

From what I'm reading, all he sees through the finder is the central rangefinder patch surrounded by blackness. That and the drop accident suggest to me the prism has separated. (In the diagram above, it's the cubic-shaped affair directly in front of the eyepiece...the diagonal line is where it is glued with balsam in the M2, M3 and very early M4 cameras, and it can separate from age and impact). Leica's official solution has long been to replace the entire rangefinder. IIRC DAG in the US at one time could re-silver and re-cement the prism, Idk if he's still doing it, or if there are others that can do it. Been a while since I looked into it.

Edited December 23, 2014 by bocaburger

[jaapv]

From what I'm reading, all he sees through the finder is the central rangefinder patch surrounded by blackness. That and the drop accident suggest to me the prism has separated. (In the diagram above, it's the cubic-shaped affair directly in front of the eyepiece...the diagonal line is where it is glued with balsam in the M2, M3 and very early M4 cameras, and it can separate from age and impact). Leica's official solution has long been to replace the entire rangefinder. IIRC DAG in the US at one time could re-silver and re-cement the prism, Idk if he's still doing it, or if there are others that can do it. Been a while since I looked into it.

Will van Manen might be able to as well. He handles separated lens elements too.

[luigi bertolotti]

From what I'm reading, all he sees through the finder is the central rangefinder patch surrounded by blackness. That and the drop accident suggest to me the prism has separated. (In the diagram above, it's the cubic-shaped affair directly in front of the eyepiece...the diagonal line is where it is glued with balsam in the M2, M3 and very early M4 cameras, and it can separate from age and impact). Leica's official solution has long been to replace the entire rangefinder. IIRC DAG in the US at one time could re-silver and re-cement the prism, Idk if he's still doing it, or if there are others that can do it. Been a while since I looked into it.

 

... exactly what happemed to MY M2, and about around the same time as Philip (some years before... 1988 as far as I remember... me too for a fall, and the occasion to buy my M4...)

And everything went exactly as you write : "prism separation" was the diagnosis, "replace the RF" the cure (with the proposal to have it changed with the M4 RF gaining the 135 frame) : too costly in comparision with buying a good M4 (which I desired anyway...)... and kept it with useless VF/RF as a Visoflex only platform... still at my home.

Edited December 23, 2014 by luigi bertolotti

[pippy]

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Hi there and thanks to all for the replies and input.

 

To clarify one aspect raised by bocaburger;

The viewfinder is clear and un-interrupted; the small r/f window from the minor window is clear. Only the 'main' r/f window is missing. To which...

 

I suppose you mean the frameline window. It is probably just stuck...

Thanks very much for that illustration, jaapv.

All there seems to 'be there' in my body which re-inforces my understanding that it is a simple(!) case of re-alignment which is in order.

Looking at the attached diagram it would appear (to me, as a layman) that the 'prime' r/f window is produced by the same window as the bright-lines frames.

This will be my initial target.

 

Thanks to everyone for your help so far.

It really is appreciated.

 

 

 

Philip.

[archigraphy]

Hi Philip,

Regarding the engravings I just can recommend looking for a laser engravers - cheap and perfect! I found one here in Cape Town, South Africa and am very happy with their work.

Merry Christmas,

Wieland

[payasam]

I do not understand, Philip. A window is a physical aperture and cannot go missing. It is possible that you can no longer see frame lines in your finder. Please post a photo taken through your camera's finder from the rear.

[pippy]

Thanks for the suggestion of a laser engraver, archigraphy.

I'll get on to it early in the New Year.

 

I do not understand, Philip. A window is a physical aperture and cannot go missing. It is possible that you can no longer see frame lines in your finder. Please post a photo taken through your camera's finder from the rear.

With all due respect, payasam, evidently they can go - and, I assure you, one of them has gone - 'missing' due to something in the rangefinder complex being knocked out of alignment. After all; if it hadn't 'gone missing' then there would have been absolutely no point in my starting this thread in the first place.

 

The r/f images as seen through the eyepiece, although created by a physical object/aperture are merely 'virtual' phenomena. As the alignment of one or more parts of the r/f units has been disturbed one of these virtual images no longer appears in it's correct place and, therefore, there are not two virtual 'windows' to allow for r/f focussing.

 

Once the Xmas festivities are over and things get back to normal I will attempt to illustrate the issue but, as the problem is a lack of one of the virtual images, this might prove somewhat problematic...

As I mentioned in an earlier post; from looking at the illustration posted by jaapv my initial thoughts centre on the section which provides the bright-line frames.

FWIW here is a pretty crappy record shot taken during the top-plate replacement/Vulcanite removal. Sharp-eyed readers (with, perhaps, an active imagination!) might be able to see everything important in place - albeit with something being in the wrong place...

 

Philip.

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Edited December 27, 2014 by pippy
Adding an attachment

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I think most people here are puzzled by the term "window".

 

Looking into the RF of my M4 I see:

- An image of what's in front of the camera, taking up the complete angle of view

- Two sets of bright lines, forming two nested oblongs; these indicate what's going to be shown in the photograph. Those lines change when the frame line selection lever in front of the camera is used. (I think the M2 has only one and not two sets of lines visible at a time).

- a small bright oblong area containing the second image; this second image moves to the left and right when changing the distance setting on the lens.

 

I believe most of us think that it is the frame lines that have gone.

[pippy]

I think most people here are puzzled by the term "window".

- a small bright oblong area containing the second image; this second image moves to the left and right when changing the distance setting on the lens.

 

I believe most of us think that it is the frame lines that have gone.

Thank you Philipp. I believe I have been guilty of not being clear neither with my terminology nor my description. Apologies to all concerned.

In all previous posts I was considering the main image as seen directly through the eyepiece as one 'image' and the supplementary r/f image as this 'second image' you describe.

 

This second image (which moves to the left and right) is the one which is not in the correct place nor doing it's job. It appears as a faint 'ghost image' when the body's focussing cam is activated but doesn't allow for focussing due to it being out of alignment.

The bright-line frames are still visible but I believe these, too, to be fainter than they should be hence my thought that the issue centres on the section described in my previous post.

 

Sorry for any and all confusion caused and thanks for everyone's continued help and advice/suggestions.

 

Philip.

Edited December 27, 2014 by pippy

[payasam]

Exactly, Philipp. I could not understand what Philip meant by "window". Philip, when looking into the eye-piece of your M2, please cover the R/F window (in front of the shutter speed dial) with a finger and tell me what happens. The "small bright oblong area" should disappear, leaving an unbroken image across the V/F. The R/F adds only one image.

[wda]

Philip, have you tried the finger test. Use a finger tip to obscure light entering the rangefinder window and remove it. What do you see? Is there a difference? This is a useful technique in low light when the split image is barely visible.

[payasam]

I got an M3 some years ago in which the R/F image was almost invisible. Don Goldberg (DAG) cleaned the finder and all was well. [edit] I see you're in England. Malcolm Taylor is well spoken of. Or Red Dot should direct you to someone competent.

Edited December 27, 2014 by payasam
addition

[pippy]

Philip, have you tried the finger test. Use a finger tip to obscure light entering the rangefinder window and remove it. What do you see? Is there a difference? This is a useful technique in low light when the split image is barely visible.

Hello again, payasam and wda. Thanks for your suggestions.

 

Yes; as I mentioned in post #12 the image provided by the small r/f window appears as a very faint image - nowhere near as clear as it was before the fall - and does not provide the correct virtual image to allow for r/f focussing hence my belief that it is the part of the r/f unit which provides this virtual image which has been knocked out of whack.

 

On a brighter note the replacement leatherette arrived and fits pretty nicely.

Here it is at around 90% 'fettled' (a few bits needed final tidying up for a perfect fit);

 

Philip.

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Edited December 28, 2014 by pippy

[jaapv]

So the moving mirror is knocked out of alignment.

[pippy]

So the moving mirror is knocked out of alignment.

I'll have a look there, jaapv.

Thanks very much.

 

Philip.

[giordano]

So the moving mirror is knocked out of alignment.

 

There's certainly something wrong, but it can't be the moving mirror because the M2 doesn't have one. What's behind the RF window is a fixed prism; the moving element is a little swinging lens placed between this prism and the frameline assembly (see diagram here).

Edited December 28, 2014 by giordano
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[payasam]

Seems to me that the R/F assembly is made up of small parts put together with great precision; which makes it likely that special tools will be needed to set it right.