joeswe Posted October 6, 2014 Share #1 Posted October 6, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hello, this is my second attempt to buy a screw mount Leica (the first ended with a failure as reported in a different thread a couple of weeks ago). So, the new candidate is a Leica If (according to serial number) "upgraded" to IIIf with self timer. I just developed a test film and on almost all of the pics I see a pattern of very pronounced and straight horizontal lines due to uneven density. The lines are easily visible to the bare eye on the negative. The straightness of the lines would rule out processing it seems (at least I cannot remember having seen something like this in 30 years of home developing). Am I looking at a shutter problem? Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/235082-iiif-shutter-problems/?do=findComment&comment=2684289'>More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 6, 2014 Posted October 6, 2014 Hi joeswe, Take a look here IIIf shutter problems?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
mmradman Posted October 6, 2014 Share #2 Posted October 6, 2014 Very unusual, so if negative show same lines anything in the development that could have caused it? How did you dry film? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted October 6, 2014 Share #3 Posted October 6, 2014 What can you tell us about the difference between the affected negatives and those that are not? Does the problem vary with exposure time? Are the stripes visible in the gaps between the frames? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeswe Posted October 6, 2014 Author Share #4 Posted October 6, 2014 For a development problem I would expect more irregular patterns, but I will not rule out a processing problem. Film was agitated normally (4 quick cycles every 30 seconds) in a small tank. Final rinse in de-ionized water with Photo flo. I did let the film run through my index and middle finger to squeeze the final water off (I usually don't do that), something I usually don't do. Then it was hung up for drying in ambient air. I cannot detect any scratches, lines or other damage to the film surface, it really looks like a pattern of density in the silver image. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted October 6, 2014 Share #5 Posted October 6, 2014 Hum... SO straight... indeed processing seems not to be in cause... I wonder if there can be something in the curtains of the shutter (uneven "density" ?) or, by converse, is a defective roll of film (bad deposition of sensitive chemical) : to rule out the shutter, I'd try to do a roll with long exposures (over 1s... low light, red filter and f22... ) - so that the frame is exposed with fully open shutter.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
xalo Posted October 6, 2014 Share #6 Posted October 6, 2014 Hello, I came here because my IIIf's curtains were just rebuilt... I doubt that's a shutter issue or even development —*could the film (what is it?) come from a batch with faulty coating? (Am just reading that Luigi thinks along those lines, too.) Then, it comes to my mind that I have never seen the equivalent of the pressure plate on a Barnack (will look through mine at 'bulb' setting tonight); although those stripes do not look like scratches, could there be something warped inside? Alexander Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerW Posted October 6, 2014 Share #7 Posted October 6, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) That looks very familiar. This summer I was trying to photograph a WWII Spitfire when some of the negs had similar lines. Of the roll only 3 or 4 were affected. I was using a fairly high speed 1/500, from memory. The camera, strangely enough was a IIF. We do seem to be experiencing the same problem. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/235082-iiif-shutter-problems/?do=findComment&comment=2684342'>More sharing options...
joeswe Posted October 6, 2014 Author Share #8 Posted October 6, 2014 Thank you everyone for your kind comments. Film was fresh Tri-X (expiry 2016), I have already developed other rolls from the same brick without problems. Stripes are not visible between the frames. It was a bright day, so I mostly ended up shooting at 1/500 and 1/1000s. There is one in a series of shots of the same scene where I remember I used an orange filter and this is one of the photographs that doesn't show any lines. I think I used 1/100s and f8 for that one. The other shots before and after (without filter and with faster speeds) show the marks. So maybe indeed related to fast shutter speeds? I inspected the shutter curtains and the second curtain looks slightly "bulged". I am considering doing a second test roll to pin down the problem to a certain shutter speed or other factor. BTW, what a cute little camera, I would hate to have to return it ... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted October 6, 2014 Share #9 Posted October 6, 2014 There have been other cases of striped negatives been discussed. As far as I can recall in some cases the cause turned out to be ragged edges of the shutter curtains. That would be restricted to the image area and would become more pronounced with shorter exposure times. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted October 6, 2014 Share #10 Posted October 6, 2014 There have been other cases of striped negatives been discussed. As far as I can recall in some cases the cause turned out to be ragged edges of the shutter curtains. That would be restricted to the image area and would become more pronounced with shorter exposure times. Good hipotesis... if the superposition of the edges of the two curtains has some issue / irregularity, one could surely have some surprise of this kind... and it can surely be dependent on speed, too... Pity that with Barnacks, having not the hinged back of Ms, one can check only the front and not the back of curtains... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted October 6, 2014 Share #11 Posted October 6, 2014 I think you could see the edges of each curtain through the throat of the camera using the shutter at the Bulb setting. I don't know whether one could see the source of the problem this way, though. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gyoung Posted October 6, 2014 Share #12 Posted October 6, 2014 How about pressure fogging as the film is drawn through a much too tight cassette velvet light trap? Gerry Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted October 6, 2014 Share #13 Posted October 6, 2014 How about pressure fogging as the film is drawn through a much too tight cassette velvet light trap? Gerry Really does exist this phenomenon ? Years ago I remember to have had problems due to tight cassettes... but it resulted in thin scratches ... much thinner than the above bandings... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gyoung Posted October 6, 2014 Share #14 Posted October 6, 2014 Never had it from a cassette but seen it on lith film poorly handled. Would have made the film very hard to advance and rewind so probably not likely. Clutching at straws!! Gerry Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerzy Posted October 6, 2014 Share #15 Posted October 6, 2014 If this happens at high speeds only than inspect the edges of both curtains with a strong magnifying glass, especially opening curtain. Pretty sure you will see fine, small "hairs". At 1/500 and 1/1000 the distance between opening and closing curtain is pretty small, such "hairs" causes visible under exposition. Replacing curtains is the solution. Jerzy Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted October 7, 2014 Share #16 Posted October 7, 2014 Stripes are not visible between the frames...... BTW, what a cute little camera, I would hate to have to return it ... I would perhaps suspect the shutter curtain pulling apart where it is stitched, the holes opening up either when the shutter is cocked and/or released. I went through two IIIF Leica's, both from famous UK Leica specialists selling them as 'Exc +' before I got a third on Ebay that really was perfect. The first wasn't even a IIIf when it arrived, the second had a sticky shutter and was is poor condition. Then on Ebay I saw a IIIF Red Dial that was hovering under the radar with little interest. Given my recent disappointments I decided it couldn't get worse so bid and won. It arrived and considering the similar price it was in vastly better condition than the 'specialists' offerings, and there was a receipt enclosed showing it had been given a full service by Malcolm Taylor the year before, at very nearly the price of the camera! So keep at it, the right camera will turn up eventually. Steve Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerW Posted October 7, 2014 Share #17 Posted October 7, 2014 Thank you all for sharing your thoughts. Jerzy's suggestion makes a lot of sense to me. I have been unable to see any minute hairs, though. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted October 7, 2014 Share #18 Posted October 7, 2014 Thank you all for sharing your thoughts. Jerzy's suggestion makes a lot of sense to me. I have been unable to see any minute hairs, though. They would need to be very thick hairs, they wouldn't be fine or minute, look at the width of the bands, they are thick enough to measure with a ruler. Steve Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc_braconi Posted October 9, 2014 Share #19 Posted October 9, 2014 I il try to check the film pressure plate also Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeswe Posted October 9, 2014 Author Share #20 Posted October 9, 2014 I am currently shooting a second test roll, noting shutter times, to see if there is a clear connection between the fast speeds and the problem. I also talked to the seller (a camera technician who used to work for Leitz) and showed him the sample shot, he said I could either return the camera for a refund or let him try to fix it. I opted for the latter and will certainly report back here on the outcome. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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