Leica IIIc / IIIf buying advice

[joeswe]

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Hello,

I recently got interested in screw mount bodies after playing around with a friend's IIIf, who had inhereted the camera from a relative. I am now thinking about buying my own IIIc or IIIf.

 

Now, I will have a look at a local offer of a IIIc (says the buyer) (or rather IIc, from the serial number in the 443xxx range?), that was apparently upgraded to an IIIf. I know the general things to watch out for when buying used Leicas (shutter cloth, shutter meachnism, finder etc.), but know relativley little about the model history and improvements of the screwmount cameras, so I have a couple of related questions.

 

Would such a camera be functionally identical with an original IIIf or are there other changes between the models (affecting usability, reliability, serviceability etc) that makes a IIIf in similar functional condition better/more desirable than a modified IIIc from a user's (not collector's) point of view?

 

Closely related is the question whether a IIIc->IIIf modified camera would be priced similar to an original IIIf in comparable condition? I understand that the IIIf usually command slightly higher prices than the IIIc. So is a modified IIIc priced more like a IIIc or more like a IIIf ... or in between?

 

And a last point, the seller has stated that the camera has some glue residue over the top plate engraving from a sticker that has been removed. What is the best method to remove such residue without scratching/damaging the chrome?

Edited September 16, 2014 by joeswe

[spydrxx]

The glue removal issue - it will depend on the type of glue. Judicious use of a product like "Goo-Gone" usually does the trick for sticky glues. Hardened glues are another issue - usually a warm lightly dampened rag will do it.

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[jaapv]

Or white spirit for non-water based glues.

[luigi bertolotti]

About your problems on the IIIf that is a IIIc (or IIc) upgraded, I think that si not a fact to be particulary worried about : in user terms, a camera that has been upgraded has exactly the same functionality of an original one (of course, speaking of the factory upgrades that were regularly listed and performed at those times) ; as a collectible, the value for those generation of screwmount Leicas (war/postwar) is absolutely commanded by conditions : a very fine upgraded IIIf will value more than a simply "good" original IIIf... a superb IIIf will value more than a superb IIIc (if any exist...), but less than a superb IIIg... and maybe even less than a superb IIf, which is a scarce model... but if one finds (it has been reported) a IIIf upgraded from ,say, a IIc, WITH the original bill/statement of Leitz Wetzlar for the upgrade, this is more valued than an original IIIf. without any doc...and so on...

The market for not rare items (I mean, no 250, 72, IIIck, IIId...) is a very "fluid" market, with many items for sale/buy all around the world : the only "spikes" in value are for items that are offered as an original and consistent "kit"... to say, original box, some accessory, seller receipt detailing the whole set acquisition etc....

If you want a Barnack for using, don't worry too much if is or not an upgrade : if it works fine, is a good buy.

[TomB_tx]

I have a IIIf that is an upgraded IIIa (complete new body). Only difference from production IIIf is that the body casting wasn't machined to fit the baseplate "finger" that holds the film from coming out of the bottom rail. The casting had the depression where the finger would fit - just wasn't milled. So a IIIc baseplate must be used instead. Perhaps this camera was a IIIa that was upgraded to IIIc, then to IIIf.

[joeswe]

Thank you everybody for your input. I inspected the camera and shot some test frames and am still not sure if I should buy it.

 

First the positive impressions: The finder is clear and easy to focus, rangefinder focus spot on. The leather is in nice condition, Sharkskin with a horizontal pattern, which I later found out is quite rare (no idea though if this makes the camera a "collector's item"), the overall finish is okay with normal signs of use, I don't see any traces of bad chrome quality which is said to be a problem sometimes with the II/IIIc. The shutter curtainsat least look very nice.

 

The negative: Bottom cover looks used and seems to be ever so slightly warped (you have to fiddle a bit to get it on). Shutter seemed to run well, but after exercising the 1s a couple of times it became really sticky. Okay, this is not a big surprise. Faster times seemed okay, but after inspecting the scans of my test exposures I found some problems. The 1/1000s and 1/500 shows brightness falloff towards the right on some of the frames (I exercised both shutter times a couple of times before shooting). This can be taken care of, but from a similar problem with my M2 I know that it can develop into a real pain to get this fixed (3 trips to the repair guy ...).

 

Now, what really bothers me however, is some blurriness that I see towards the right edge of the frame on most of the shots whether shot wide open or at f8. It is not the lens (I brought my own one and also used the seller's Elmar for comparison), but rather seems to be a film flatness problem (I don't think it's the mount, then you I would expect to see it on all frames?). When you look at the upper edge of the frame, just beneath the sprocket holes, you can actually see that the exposed area is not a straight line, but slightly bends or curves away ... Is this film flatness thing a known problem with the screw mount Leica? Some kind of user error on my side? I now start to wonder how the film is kept flat in the screw mount Leica ...

 

The price was set at 320 Eur (body only, no accessories) and we agreed upon inspection that 250 would probably a more realistic price. Now, after discovering the above problem with film flatness and adding cost for a shutter service (given that the film flatness problem can be fixed, I have no idea how complicated/expensive it will be), I will probably spend at least something in the ~500 Euro range altogether. I am asking myself if this is still a reasonable price or I should let i pass and look for something else?

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[M9reno]

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I bought a Leica I with the body shell warped, affecting film flatness. Malcolm Taylor noticed and fixed this. Warping can easily be caused by weight on the body, e.g. by sticking under a car seat and sitting on it. Fixing was not expensive.

 

I bough a Leica If where the film pressure plate was dislodged in such a way that it prevented introduction of film. Again, easily and cheaply fixed.

 

Other than replacing parts, e.g. curtains, all work on a screwmount Leica is economical and effective. "There is indeed remarkably little inside a Leica anyway" (J. Lipinski, "Miniature and Precision Cameras", p. 163) -- which is part of their attraction.

 

Depends what you want here - if a user, go for it. If something more, plenty of more fish in the sea.

[RogerW]

I think if I were you I would pass and move on.

[joeswe]

I think if I were you I would pass and move on.

 

That is what I eventually did. The decision was made easier by the fact that I found some indications of the shutter curtains having holes. New shutter curtains would have been the economic death spell for the deal. Screw mount Leicas are in no short supply, so it shouldn't be to difficult to find a better alternative. Thank you everybody for sharing your thoughts.

[A miller]

I bought a near mint IIIg from Youxin Ye a couple of years ago for about $700. Youxin is an excellent Leica technician and someone you can trust. Couldn't be happier with the IIIg. With a 28mm summaron, and external VF and zone focused it is the perfect camera for the streets. So much more compact than any of the M film bodies.

 

It's a bitch in several respects IQ-wise; but that's part of the fun!