fWord Posted November 5, 2011 Share #1 Posted November 5, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Good day folks, Curiosity got the better of me and I decided to get a Wollensak Velostigmat 90/4.5 for use on my M8. It has a Leica thread mount, so I'm assuming that an adapter would be required to use it with full coupling on an M-mount camera. Are there any specific brands of adapter I should be looking at or would almost any one do the trick? I've been reading that this is an 'American copy' of the old Leica Elmar 90/4. Is the optical cell and performance hence the same, even though the Wollensak is an f/4.5 versus f/4 on the Elmar? Also, what size IR-cut filter should I obtain for this lens? If this is not available, what about the size for a standard UV filter? Does anyone know of the history of how this lens came to be, or have any photos taken with the lens? I enjoy using really, really old lenses just for the fun of it. Other than that I think the purchase wasn't the smartest one I've ever made! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 5, 2011 Posted November 5, 2011 Hi fWord, Take a look here Wollensak Velostigmat 90/4.5. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
fWord Posted November 9, 2011 Author Share #2 Posted November 9, 2011 By the way, does anyone know where I can go to get a SOOGZ adapter? I realised that I'd need this in order to use IR-cut E39 filters on this lens to combat the IR sensitivity of the M8! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted November 9, 2011 Share #3 Posted November 9, 2011 There are plenty of LTM adapters on the market. I would advise the CV codable ones. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giordano Posted November 9, 2011 Share #4 Posted November 9, 2011 The mount of the 90/4.5 looks very like that of the pre-war Elmar 90 and may well be a coopy, but the front element of the lens is markedly smaller. Wollensak had been making lenses for decades and there's no obvious reason for them to have copied a Leitz design rather than adapted one of their own. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted November 9, 2011 Share #5 Posted November 9, 2011 (edited) A not secondary historical detail : the Wollensak Velostigmat 90mm f 4,5 was not simply a 3rd party lens with Leica 39x1 thread mount: it was a lens that was officially on the Leitz USA pricelist in the 1945-1950 timeframe, when, for war-related issues, the demand for Leitz lenses could not be entirely satisfied with Germany made lenses: indeed, Wollensak company of USA (in turn, founded in 1899 by German immigrants) made the optical components, and Leitz N.Y. provided mounts and made the assembly. It's a well known breed of lenses which included also a pair of 50mm - Elmar style (3,5 and 2,8) and a 127mm (4 inches, typical US focal) f 4,5 that "played the role" of the Hektor 135. They made also a 50mm f 4,5 sold by Leitz N.Y. as enlarger lens for the Focomat; also, Leitz N.Y. made a multifocal finder - almost identical to the VIOOH, called "Imarect" and coded IMFIN, which had a 127mm frame. They had their own 5 letter code (90mm = LEXXC, late items were called and engraved as "Wollensak Raptar")...so, for collectors, the Wollensaks of that time are considered fully original Leitz items of a specific interest. Edited November 9, 2011 by luigi bertolotti 7 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomB_tx Posted November 9, 2011 Share #6 Posted November 9, 2011 Interesting Luigi! That probably explains the "50 F3.5 VELOSTIGMAT COLLAPS LEITZ NY" that KEH has listed now. (They have a 127 also) Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted November 9, 2011 Share #7 Posted November 9, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Exactly !! A LELEL and a LELCP, respectively... : to be tricky, the 50mm is surely a LELEL (has the Leitz NY engraving on front ring) , while the 127 seems not to have the Leitz N.Y. logo in white on the black tube... it could be from a period after 1950, when Leitz NY ceased to sell the Wollensaks because the supply from Germany had became regular (but Wollensak continued to sell them under their own brand... probably they were less costly than Wetzlar items and retained a share of market as 3rd party alternatives, like the CV and Zeiss of today...) Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twotone Posted November 10, 2011 Share #8 Posted November 10, 2011 There were a couple of those lens sold in the igavel auction recently. I'm pretty sure at least one of them went for serious money. Something around $1800 I think, might have been the 90mm lens. Thinking about this, I'm sure there was a complete lens set from the 1930s sold too. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fWord Posted November 10, 2011 Author Share #9 Posted November 10, 2011 Japp- Thanks for the move. This thread was languishing for 5 days without a reply, and after the move, there were six! Initially I was debating on whether to post the thread to this forum because I wanted advise on using the lens on the M8. Thanks also for the suggestion on the adapter. A few days ago I already bought one and its enroute as we speak. It's Leitz-made, got 'M2' and 'M3' as well as '90' engraved on it, and also has a cut out presumably for lenses with the infinity focus lock. John- After buying the lens I dropped the seller an email asking about filters. He suggested that it probably uses the A36 filter, same as the Leitz Elmar 90/4. Unfortunately the A36 filter never came in the IR-cut guise, a filter that is needed for use on the M8 under some circumstances. Hence the search for the SOOGZ continues. It's true that Wollensak is a separate company, however this lens seems to have 'Wollensak' engraved at the front of the lens but also has 'E. Leitz New York' and 'Made in USA' engraved on the barrel near the mount. So perhaps it was a joint venture rather than a copy? Luigi- Wow, you seem to know an awful lot about older lenses. A long time ago I posted a thread asking about the Telyt 400/5 on Visoflex and similarly got a very detailed response from you. I still have that lens and it got some really nice photos on a recent vacation. A heavy beast, but inexpensive. From basic reading, I understood that the Wollensak 50/2.8 is the rarest of the lot (in Leica thread mount), the 127mm the most common. Would you happen to know how the performance of the Wollensak 90/4.5 compares to that of the second generation (ie. the one after the 1930s batch) Leitz Elmar 90/4? Would it still use the A36 filters or the SOOGZ adapter? Twotone- YIKES! $1800? Maybe it was the 50mm f/2.8. Surely the 90/4.5 is not worth that much. I'd like to imagine I got a bargain, but everything sells for what its worth on 'The Bay' these days. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giordano Posted November 10, 2011 Share #10 Posted November 10, 2011 As far as I know these lenses were neither joint ventures nor copies. I always thought they were made by Wollensak for E Leitz NY. Luigi, however, said in this thread that the optical cells were made by Wollensak while the mounts were made and the finished lenses assembled by Leitz NY, and he's studied these things a lot more than I have. Either way, the dual branding would have been normal in those days. Regarding filters, I'd be very surprised if they don't take A36 accessories: (a) photos of the 90/4.5 certainly look as if it has a 36mm rim; ( on the couple of occasions I've handled one (long ago) it seemed exactly the same size as the rim of other A36 lenses; and © Leitz NY who would have wanted it to be compatible with the other lenses and accesories they were selling. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted November 10, 2011 Share #11 Posted November 10, 2011 (edited) I confirm that all Wollensak - Leitz NY lenses used the std. A36 filters. Andrew : I haven't idea of their performances compared to similar Wetzlar lenses... even Erwin Puts does not quote them in his impressive Compendium of Leiz lenses . SOOGZ is a not difficult to find adapter... at the moment, I quickly found 3 or 4 on ebay... Anyway, post some pictures taken with the 90 4,5 on M8... probably they will be the first Wollensak-taken pics posted in the forum... Edited November 10, 2011 by luigi bertolotti Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fWord Posted November 11, 2011 Author Share #12 Posted November 11, 2011 John- Thanks. Previously (prior to getting any replies to the thread) I looked at the photos of both the Elmar 90/4 and the Wollensak 90 and figured they looked pretty similar. But photos do have a habit of fooling the eyes sometimes. Luigi- Yes it was a little unfortunate Erwin did not mention any of these lenses in his book. Nevertheless as you say, I should get some photos posted ASAP and we could make some judgements about it. I doubt if the performance would be anything exciting...after all the lens is probably 60-70 years old. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomB_tx Posted November 11, 2011 Share #13 Posted November 11, 2011 I doubt if the performance would be anything exciting...after all the lens is probably 60-70 years old. Hey! Some of us are also 60-70 years old and are somewhat exciting. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twotone Posted November 11, 2011 Share #14 Posted November 11, 2011 From the recent I-gavel auction. This link below is the entire sale which goes from page one through to page seven http://bid.igavelauctions.com/Bidding.taf?_function=detail&Auction_uid1=2304338 I think that I was getting mixed with the Angenieux lenses that were sold (last link) , think that the auction at Leicashop this month has the set of those lenses from the 1930s that I referred to above. Leica Wollensak Velostigmat 90mm f/4.5 Black E7RBLAC - Item #: 2304324 Leica Wollensak 80mm f/4.5 Black E7RBLAC - Item #: 2304319 Angenieux Type P1 90mm f/1.8 Black for Leica E7RBLAC - Item #: 2304338 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted November 11, 2011 Share #15 Posted November 11, 2011 From the recent I-gavel auction. This link below is the entire sale which goes from page one through to page seven Angenieux Type P1 90mm f/1.8 Black for Leica E7RBLAC - Item #: 2304338 I think that I was getting mixed with the Angenieux lenses that were sold (last link) , think that the auction at Leicashop this month has the set of those lenses from the 1930s that I referred to above. Leica Wollensak Velostigmat 90mm f/4.5 Black E7RBLAC - Item #: 2304324 Leica Wollensak 80mm f/4.5 Black E7RBLAC - Item #: 2304319 Angenieux Type P1 90mm f/1.8 Black for Leica E7RBLAC - Item #: 2304338 ... I wonder how they didn't note the error about the lens quoted as 80 mm... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twotone Posted November 12, 2011 Share #16 Posted November 12, 2011 ... I wonder how they didn't note the error about the lens quoted as 80 mm... If you look at it the pic quickly Luigi it does look like the number 80. Is that a fair price for that lens BTW considering the other 90mm went for a 10% of that '80' lens? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fWord Posted November 12, 2011 Author Share #17 Posted November 12, 2011 If you look at it the pic quickly Luigi it does look like the number 80. Is that a fair price for that lens BTW considering the other 90mm went for a 10% of that '80' lens? They both look like a 90mm f/4.5 on my computer screen. It is utterly amazing that one could go for less than $100 and another go for over $700...not to mention the more expensive one still had cleaning marks. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted November 12, 2011 Share #18 Posted November 12, 2011 Yes.. hard to justify such a huge price gap, even if body looks marginally finer, and there is a bakelite keeper which maybe is rather scarce... I wonder if the buyer has been misleaded by the "80 mm" description... if so, he maybe could have reason to complain with the auctioneers... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fWord Posted November 12, 2011 Author Share #19 Posted November 12, 2011 Yes.. hard to justify such a huge price gap, even if body looks marginally finer, and there is a bakelite keeper which maybe is rather scarce... I wonder if the buyer has been misleaded by the "80 mm" description... if so, he maybe could have reason to complain with the auctioneers... The one I bought (still in the post) is supposed to be optically perfect even though I could see some wear to the exterior. Maybe I should put it back for auction to see if it'd net me $700! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twotone Posted November 12, 2011 Share #20 Posted November 12, 2011 The one I bought (still in the post) is supposed to be optically perfect even though I could see some wear to the exterior. Maybe I should put it back for auction to see if it'd net me $700! Don't forget the buyer's premium which is another $144 plus import tax into whichever country it's going to (if outside of the USA). Here in the UK it's about another 18% so nearly a $1000 for that lens if it's going to a UK buyer. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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