Patton's Leica: A really NEGLECTED historic piece

[robert_parker]

Stephan and Bernd make very good points but I feel if the condition of the camera is due to post war neglect rather than use in the field then I would certainly support a project to help restore it

[budrichard]

BTW Leica cameras were not standard issue for US Combat Still Photographers. My Uncle was a US ARMY Combat Photographer and he used a Speed Graflex for stills. This link shows a US Army Combat Photographer at work.-Dick

Photographers: Slide 1 of 34

[Mountaineer-American]

budrichard, that's a great link on the combat photographers. Thanks a million for putting it up. From what I've read the Speed Graphic was the most-utilized camera in both Europe & the Pacific.

[lars_bergquist]

The US war photographers' use of the four by five inch 'Speed' Graphic plate camera (though with pack film) is of course the reason why US front line photos were mostly posed after the fact – like that flag raising photo. It was freelancers like Capa, without the logistics of an army behind them, that used 'miniature cameras' -– a term which included Rolleiflexes.

The British Armed Forces however used many Leica cameras, including IIIc cameras which could scarcely have been obtained until after the outbreak of hostilities. There is evidence that these were imported via Sweden. The Royal Navy operated a blockade-running 'shipping line' with fast torpedo boats to the Swedish west coast, which mostly transported vitally needed SKF precision ball bearings to Britain. and it seems that some boxes with Leica cameras were also stowed ... there is no documentation available however, and the people who knew are dead now (I was too young to know!)

Cameras in British military ownership (not cameras borrowed pro tem.) were duly marked with the well-known 'broad arrow' brand.

The old man from the Age of the IIIc

[thrid]

Originally Posted by jhild

At the time of WWII a Leica was an enemy made camera, was there nothing at least
similar made in USA? What would general people say if they would find out their war
hero was using a German camera? This might be the reason to place it just somewhere...

Jo

Unless you were shooting 4x5 with a Speed Graphic, anyone worth their salt used a German camera during the war. Contax, Leica and Rollei cameras were in high demand and prized booty. If I remember correctly at one point a call went out from the British government looking for these cameras from citizens to meet the demand from the military.

With the exception of the Speed Graphic, the Allies did not produce a single camera that could compete with the German gear in terms of reliability or optical performance.

[thrid]

Originally Posted by lars_bergquist

The US war photographers' use of the four by five inch 'Speed' Graphic plate camera (though with pack film) is of course the reason why US front line photos were mostly posed after the fact – like that flag raising photo.

This photo was not staged. Instead Rosenthals' photo depicts the second raising of the flag on Iwo Jima. The first flag was too small to be seen across the island and a second, larger flag was sent from a ship, on the orders of the commanding officer.

[bill]

Originally Posted by thrid

This photo was not staged. Instead Rosenthals' photo depicts the second raising of the flag on Iwo Jima. The first flag was too small to be seen across the island and a second, larger flag was sent from a ship, on the orders of the commanding officer.

...so how does that constitute "not staged"...?

Regards,

Bill

[thrid]

Originally Posted by bill

...so how does that constitute "not staged"...?

Regards,

Bill

Staged would imply Rosenthal saying: "You stand over there, you there; now lift the flag! Ok, lets do that again and get a second shot for safety!"

A superior officer ordering a bigger flag to be hoisted as a replacement, so everyone on the island could see it, is history. It was an action not induced or influenced by the photographer. Rosenthal just happened to be there when this occurred and made the shot.

If I remember correctly the first raising was also photographed. Rosenthal's photo of the replacement flag being raised was a lot more photogenic, so it is the one that became famous. Ironically Rosenthal thought he had blown it, because you couldn't really see anyone's face in the photo.

Raising the Flag on Iwo Jima - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Flags being replaced is not an uncommon occurrence through out history. For the most part infantry soldiers do not carry around full size flags, but instead may have a half or third size example. Usually these small flags are quickly replaced by a bigger version.

Other examples are the hoisting of the Red flag on the Reichstag by the Red Army. But in this case, we may really be dealing with a staged event, that took place days after the battle.

Flag on the Reichstag - FamousPicturesMagazine

[ChadHahn]

Originally Posted by jhild

At the time of WWII a Leica was an enemy made camera, was there nothing at least
similar made in USA? What would general people say if they would find out their war
hero was using a German camera? This might be the reason to place it just somewhere...

Jo

I know plenty of people have responded to this post but here are some pictures of Robert Capa with German cameras. Even a picture of him and a colleague carrying a Leica.

Chad

[Thomas Edwards]

...fascinating...anyone know what happened to patton's negatives?...war museum / west point?...would probably have been as illuminating as capa's negatives...

...phaidon press has an anthology of stories by magnum photographers...would have thought that someone (lhsa? leica camera?) would have done the same with (in)famous leica users...admittedly, pasi's book, 'leica: witness to a century', was a good start, but hardly scratched the surface, imho...

[elansprint72]

Originally Posted by Thomas Edwards

...fascinating...anyone know what happened to patton's negatives?...war museum / west point?...would probably have been as illuminating as capa's negatives...

...phaidon press has an anthology of stories by magnum photographers...would have thought that someone (lhsa? leica camera?) would have done the same with (in)famous leica users...admittedly, pasi's book, 'leica: witness to a century', was a good start, but hardly scratched the surface, imho...

Well hardly any of them were used in the book "Patton's Photographs", this book sets out to show "the war as seen by Patton" yet he manages to appear in the vast majority of the images! The photos which he did take are mainly snapshots of dead folks at the sides of the road, he even manages to get his finger in front of the lens in one frame!
The introduction to the book describes the photos as having been taken "with a simple camera", hmmmm.

[thrid]

Originally Posted by ChadHahn

I know plenty of people have responded to this post but here are some pictures of Robert Capa with German cameras. Even a picture of him and a colleague carrying a Leica.

The fellow chatting with Capa is George Rodger; a famous British war photographer and one of the co-founders of the Magnum agency. This picture was taken somewhere in France, I believe before the liberation of Paris.

Rodger was an extraordinarily brave and talented man, but was severely traumatized by his experiences during the war. When it was all done he swore that he would never cover a conflict again. Instead he documented the vanishing cultures of Africa, as they fell pray to the changing times.

George Rodger

[leicanthrope]

Originally Posted by budrichard

BTW Leica cameras were not standard issue for US Combat Still Photographers. My Uncle was a US ARMY Combat Photographer and he used a Speed Graflex for stills. This link shows a US Army Combat Photographer at work.-Dick

Photographers: Slide 1 of 34

Speed Graphics certainly were the normal issued camera, but there are plenty of photographs that show WW2 Signal Corps photographers with Leicas (and a number of other similar "miniature" cameras). The military had it's own version of the Kodak 35, designated by them as the PH-324, so they weren't 100% adverse to 35mm on an official level.

--Chris

[storybrown]

Originally Posted by thrid

The fellow chatting with Capa is George Rodger; a famous British war photographer and one of the co-founders of the Magnum agency. This picture was taken somewhere in France, I believe before the liberation of Paris.

Rodger was an extraordinarily brave and talented man, but was severely traumatized by his experiences during the war. When it was all done he swore that he would never cover a conflict again. Instead he documented the vanishing cultures of Africa, as they fell pray to the changing times.

George Rodger

I am glad to have this identification. Rodger's work on vanishing cultures in Sudan - I have a reprint of his book on the Nuba - inspired Leni Reifenstahl to her greatest late work, the books Last of the Nuba and The People of Kau. She describes her equipment in the later - M3, M5, SL MOT, many lenses, &c. Both her books and the Rodger book are certainly very worth getting if one can find copies. And the vanishing culture in question now actually has vanished - they exist today mostly only in these books.

Use of Leicas by US troops during WWII was not rare - even at the general rank, as the Patten example indicates - however they may have come by them. During the Korean war, US military PXes worldwide sold Leicas - for which there was always a waiting list or sale by lottery, like some hunting licenses now in some states.

I renew my suggestion that the list leaders organize a Restore Patten's Leica project - to which we all might contribute. We might set up an ongoing program for the identification and restoration of historic Leicas in general, wherever they might be found. Where's Georgia O'Keefe's Leica today, e.g.?

[uwe zankl]

Hello all

By looking at the pictures again I find one thing interesting...
Patton's Leica is a III in black, so most likely a mid 30ties model but the lens is a Summitar! Does anybody know if Summitars were actually exported to the US before the war.
Could this combo indicate that maybe a captured lens was used by the general? I think it requires a certain interest in the subject if someone purchases a Summitar to go on an older body...when I than read that Patton was not a good photographer I wonder how he got such a combination together.

cheers
Uwe

PS: Are there pictures around with Patton holding the Leica?

[harryzet]

Originally Posted by uwe zankl

... maybe a captured lens...-

you mean a stolen one?

[bill]

Originally Posted by harryzet

you mean a stolen one?

*sigh*

Regards,

Bill

[gyoung]

Originally Posted by harryzet

you mean a stolen one?

'liberated'........

Gerry

[brianv]

Well, as I recall the Unites States and Germany did not go to War until late 1941. That gives several years to import Summitars. My Lester and Morgan Leica Manual is from 1942, and lists several Leica products up through the IIIb and Summitar.

[brianv]

For those not familiar with "Leica Manual" by Lester and Morgan, it is by "American Book-Stratford Press, New York". Willard Morgan was head of the E.Leitz Division in New York, Henry Lester was an instructor at the Brooklyn Institute and professional photographer. The eighth edition of the book was published in May 1942. During the war, Leitz New York remained in business and used Wollensak to continue producing lenses.

So I suspect they imported as many products as they could, certainly the ones in the book were sold through E.Leitz New York. This includes the Summitar.