M7 or MP or M8

[innerimager]

Originally Posted by austin

g. And I am told that most scanners do not like silver-halide black-and-white film, so I'll probably say goodbye to XXX and hello to C-41 "chromogenic" black-and-white (and probably Kodak rather than Ilford XP2, since scanners do not like black-and-white film without an orange mask).

I use XP2 and the nikon coolscan and love the results. I get the XP2 for around $5/roll, have it developed only, uncut, for $2/roll. The results with the coolscan are excellent, and while I have 2 M8s and use them more, I generally prefer the experience of shooting the M7, and definitely prefer the end product for B&W. I prefer the M8 for color, and I haven't really tried shooting slide color. (I went to film after digital rather than the other way around). So my answer to the OP... get an M7 for B&W and an M8 for color! Sharing the same exposure module, AE priority and shutter dial, they even make a great shooting pair. best....Peter

[ndjambrose]

Given the choice between an M7 and an MP I'd take an MP.

I have both, but prefer the MP. It's more reliable. I'm on my third M7 and two previous ones were replaced by Leica for being defective but the MP has never let me down. By contrast, all my M7's have frequently been problematic. For example, make sure you research the recurrent problems with metering, and the DX issue. There are plenty of articles on the net.

There are no significant faults with the M8, IMO. The latest firmware is rock solid and I've been using mine daily for over 12 months. Have never experienced a single problem with it. Many of the issues you may read about here are old news and date back to the early production runs. If you're interested in an M8 make sure you evaluate it based on current models and up to date firmware. I shoot a lot of commercial/documentary work with the M8 and it's a great performer.

[alfnegri]

To the question of what could be your next camera,
my answer is for your next 50 years: MP.

[gwelland]

I recently went through this decision process although from the viewpoint of having M8's already and wanting a film companion. In the end my heart said MP but by head said M7.

For me the deciding factor really was the exposure control - the M6, M7 & M8 all work in the same manner but the MP is a throw back to older M's and is the oriented in the opposite direction. That would drive me mad personally.

AE? Who cares. I meter and shot almost always manually with the M8 & M7.

However, coming from an M3, and if you want to stick with film, then I'd be tempted to go with the MP because it'll feel more familiar.

[JWW]

I use a M3 as a fun camera but 98% of the time I use my M8. The digital images are great even printed 13x19 in on my printer and no scanning time. I've had my M8 since two January 2007 with no problems and 9000 exposures. I do notice that the lens buying craze starts mainly with the M8 for some reason.

Jan

[darkstar2004]

Originally Posted by abrewer

If you're into quick-moving stuff like street photography you should go with the M7

That aperture-priority is a life-saver; you couldn't possibly set exposure, focus and get the shot in changing conditions like you encounter in street shots with an MP

If you're shooting under less fast-moving conditions (like most of what I do despite the race cars) the MP is very, very satisfying to use

I shoot my Canon digital stuff when I have to turn something around quickly for the web or someone asks me to do a project for them

I love Leica, but the M8 is a flawed product; and I'll wait for an M9 before I even consider one

Thanks

Allan

Messr. Brewer makes some very valid points - particularly about the M8. $5500 Balboas for a jiggered up camera? That makes the M8 a non-starter in my book.

So the choice is now the MP or the M7. The fact that the MP is fully functional with a dead battery (except for the meter, of course) where the M7 functions only at 1/60 & 1/125 without power is what pushed me to the MP. That is a HUGE issue IMO.
True, you can always carry extra batteries but still, I prefer the MP over the M7.


I have recently gotten started doing some street photography and haven't found the lack of aperture priority to be a serious problem. I make my meter readings and select a basic exposure combination. I work off that and it seems to work out, as long as I am not going from sunlight to shade or vice versa. The exposure latitude of Kodak Tri-X and Ilford HP5+ which I use for street work helps with this method of shooting.

If there is a need to shoot both in the shade and the sunlight, I'll meter both scenes and keep the second exposure combination in mind; then I adjust when/if my subjects move into the sun or vice versa.

I've had my MP since May 2003 and have never wished for an M7 or any other rangefinder, so I must have made the right choice (for me anyway). In fact - if I could have only one camera & lens kit, it would be my MP & its lenses.

[harrisfoto]

I still am using a Leica M3, a Leica R6 and also a Leica R8, with a DMR back. However, I find that unless I am working in a studio, I shoot film. Then I use a Bowens Illumitran for slide and negative copying. (You can find these on Eay.) With the R8 and DMR, I transform the negatives into a digital copy. This works great for 35mm and medium format film.

I use a 75 mm enlarger lens and bellows on a Leica R8 with a Leica Digital R back, for 35mm film. I can also use the same system to make digital copies of 120 film (from the Hasselblad 500 C)

After copying by shooting raw, I use curves in Bibble Pro (any raw processor will work) to change the negative image to a positive. (just use an inverted curve.) This will also work for color negatives. I can then touch up the dust, in Photoshop, and use my Epson 7600 printer, and QuadTone Rip to print black and white prints.

A copy stand, with Leica R digital also worked great for some 3.5" x 5" negatives from the 1920's which were too big for the Illumitran. For those, I used a 5" x 7" contact printer box, and just set up camera with a Leica 60mm macro lens over the open box, with the light switched on.

This goes much faster than scanning. You still have original negatives, and could make silver prints if they were needed.

I was also thinking about getting an MP or M6 (mostly for the frame lines). But the more I consider it, the more I want to spend the money on lenses.

Regards

Steve Harris

[ndjambrose]

Originally Posted by abrewer

If you're into quick-moving stuff like street photography you should go with the M7

That aperture-priority is a life-saver; you couldn't possibly set exposure, focus and get the shot in changing conditions like you encounter in street shots with an MP <snip>...

While I know why you think this, it doesn't match my experience.

Most people who have done little or no street photography think that auto-exposure is the right answer for the above reasons. But everyone who has shot street knows this to be a fallacy. In fact, auto-exposure is the least desirable form of metering for quick shooting, because if you're shooting rapidly and instinctively with little time to aim the camera properly, you've no idea what it's metering from. Which makes it absolutely pot-luck whether you get the exposures you wanted.

Experienced street shooters are already pre-focused at a moderate hyperfocal point (say 3 meters) and pre-metered using manual exposure. It's then ridiculously simple to adjust metering a stop or two in either direction as you move between shadow and light. With practice it's instinctive - you don't even need to look at the camera.

Using an MP (or any M on manual) is much faster than an M7 on auto, and 100% more reliable.

In case of doubt, check my site. I've got over a year's worth of material to prove it.

[innerimager]

Neil- I really like your work! Wonderful feel, great timing, very nice indeed. I also really like the presentation with selected images getting highlighted with light. As to the technical issue, while I am sure you are right about how quick it is to manual meter, I just find the M7's AE is uncanny about adjusting and very hard to fool. Also, your info says you use an M6 and M7. Do you manual meter the M7 as well? best...Peter

[ndjambrose]

Originally Posted by innerimager

Neil- I really like your work! Wonderful feel, great timing, very nice indeed. I also really like the presentation with selected images getting highlighted with light. As to the technical issue, while I am sure you are right about how quick it is to manual meter, I just find the M7's AE is uncanny about adjusting and very hard to fool. Also, your info says you use an M6 and M7. Do you manual meter the M7 as well? best...Peter

Peter - thanks for your generous review. Yes, I really ought to update my info :-)

I started my project around 18 months ago with an M7 thinking that auto-exposure would be helpful, but I quickly became unhappy letting the camera do the driving. The meter is certainly precise if you have time to take a proper reading from a mid-tone, but I find it too random when quick fire shooting. I also had a lot of electronics problems which weren't resolved to my satisfaction, so I switched to an M6 and used that instead for several months. I eventually sold it in exchange for an MP as I wanted the better viewfinder.

The MP is my main street camera, but I also use an M8, though again only on manual mode. I find the M8 meter is even worse than the M7 for grab shots :-)

[innerimager]

Hi Neil- I suspected the info was outdated. What I do in changing light is let the AE select under a controlled condition, and then set that reading manually and go from there. I still think that having the AE in camera is a plus, don't have to stick with it. Anyway, trying not to get MP fever. But all this is fluff, your images are the real deal. best...Peter

[jplomley]

Neil, very nice images indeed. I'm wondering what B&W converter you might be using for your M8 images, or are you strictly using digital for color.

[ndjambrose]

Originally Posted by jplomley

Neil, very nice images indeed. I'm wondering what B&W converter you might be using for your M8 images, or are you strictly using digital for color.

Easily answered: my files are converted in Aperture 2.0. After that I hand tone the images in Photoshop. I sometimes also use Alien Skin if I want to get a specific film effect.

[zwicko]

Originally Posted by jimleicam3

I have been using an M3...

Well, why not use the M3 then?
An MP is not *too* different from your M3, so an upgrade does not make any sense.
At least to me.
Maybe I got it wrong: Did you only use it or do you own it?

The only logical upgrade would be an M8 - but as you pointed out, it might be better to wait until all major and minor problems are solved.

Until then (in case you own it): Use your M3 and enjoy!

Cheers, Z.

[jimleicam3]

One of the main reasons I want a new camera, is because using an external light meter while walking around shooting is kind of a pain. My M3 takes great photos, but on many occassions I am guessing at the exposure. I even use my M3 almost like a point and shoot. The other problem I am now facing is that I decided to send my M3 back to Leica to get cleaned and serviced(nothing has been done to this camera before). I will not be getting it back for 7-9 weeks!! I am still scared to death of the M8 with all the problems I see posted on this site. So I am thinking of the MP and a 35 mm.

[innerimager]

Originally Posted by jimleicam3

I am still scared to death of the M8 with all the problems I see posted on this site. So I am thinking of the MP and a 35 mm.

Hmm, if being scared is why you're not getting an M8 I'd think about it more. If you want to shoot digitally at all, just get it. It won't bite! best...Peter

[NZDavid]

Interesting discussion. I use an M3 and M6. Built-in metering is definitely a boon, but a handheld Sekonic 308b is very quick and intuitive to use. And accurate. Probably if you just want an M3 with a meter, the MP would be a good choice. Film or digital? The M8 would save you maybe $1,000 a year in film costs. I would never contemplate scanning myself. Just not enough time, I get a lab to do it for me. Tricky, isn't it!

[rob_x2004]

For what it is worth, the MP light meter and ease of loading is why I didnt, and still dont bother to pick up up an m2 m3.

M7 is only quicker at giving you that average exposure (and remember it is only blob meter) and as soon as it gets tough you need to make decisions and it is faster then, to use manual. Aperture priority is a safety net though.

The detents on the M7 shutter release, which I believe is the same or similar to the R9 which is the worst on any camera I have used, would drive me insane.

The only trouble with one MP, is if you have a second lens...you kinda want a second body to go with it. That and the usual caveat on Leica assembly quality, hit and miss like all Leica stuff.

[budrichard]

I have had my own M3 for about 20 years and used them earlier than that. Other than being superb cameras for low light with almost silent shutter, coming from a Nikon F background with FTn thru-the-lens finder, the M3 was slooooow to use. It has not gotton any faster over the years.
The M6 0.85 Classic i purchased was certainly faster and easier to use. The M7 I purchased 2 years ago was/is the best of the lot. Shutter detent is not a factor and I simply have never noticed it. The ability to react to fast changing conditions with only having to focus is a superb attribute. The ability to 'lock' the exposure with the shutter release is great. The speed with the Motor M outclasses any other M. I like the combination so much that I just purchased another M7. The M8 is a flawed product that eventually will be supplanted by another model. It's a lot of money to spend for a digital product with a short product lifetime.
But the final analysis and decision is yours. You really need to use each camera and make your own decision and not let anyone make that decision for you. Good luck.-Dick

[sthan]

Originally Posted by budrichard

The M8 is a flawed product that eventually will be supplanted by another model.

I beg to differ. As every other machine around (I have Mac since years without almost any problem ever, but the Apple forum is full of people who have — does that mean Mac are flawed ? — no), the M8 has its flaws (personnally, I just experimented buffer glitches, having to switch on/off — is that a real problem ? the answer is no, unless you are very high maintenance !…), but it creates super images.
Its sensor resolution (coupled with lenses rez) give superb image files, up to very large dimensions (80 x 120, BTW).
That said I love to work with my M7 and M4 (as a backup).