ADOX CMS 20

[TheGodParticle/Hari]

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My backwards journey into photography has finally reached the shores of film

 

A film camera is being acquired (M6 or M7 and maybe add one a la carte MP at a later stage)

 

I did buy 10 rolls of ADOX CMS 20 - this film is the primary reason I'm foraying into the analogue world and I do understand it's not the easiest of the lot to start with

 

Question is - since I don't have a film background, what lenses would you guys typically use for this film? I know the development process does play a role too but would you go for the current high contrast APO ASPH lenses or rather the more classic lenses with low/medium contrast?

 

I intend the use the SA21/3.4 + canon 35/1.8 LTM + 75/1.4 + 90 pre-ASPH + 135/4 combo

 

Also, any good processing labs you can recommend? I'm 45 min south of Frankfurt am Main, don't mind posting long distance and having to wait for awhile. I want postcard sized prints, poster sized prints as well as scans onto a DVD/BRay disc

 

Thank you for the help,

Hari

[Steve Ash]

If you want to get the film being developed in its developer you are left with fotoimpex or yourself.

 

Regards

Steve

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[250swb]

If I were you I'd put the Adox in the fridge and save it for later. Not just because it needs a dedicated developer (which you use at home), but ideally when starting it is far, far, better to use a very common film where you can compare your experiences (successes and failures) with the majority of other people. Secondary to this is the implied quest for ultimate quality, which is a refined job in 35mm that requires experience at every stage from exposure to printing.

 

So I'd suggest some Delta 100 or FP4, a medium speed film that can be processed either by yourself or a lab. Lenses can be any lens, because if you process the film yourself you can alter the characteristics of the film in the way you expose and develop the negative and this can mask any inherent traits of the lens. Indeed any lab can do the same thing (accidentally) if their development regime happens to make the negatives flatter or more contrasty than you may want, but you have no control over this.

 

Steve

[honcho]

?.......I did buy 10 rolls of ADOX CMS 20 - this film is the primary reason I'm foraying into the analogue world and I do understand it's not the easiest of the lot to start with.........Question is - since I don't have a film background, what lenses would you guys typically use for this film?........

 

You haven't thought this through very carefully, otherwise you wouldn't be asking questions such as this, which, to be blunt, are just laughable. I think you would be well advised to stop 'your backward journey' in it's tracks and continue your quest rather more logically with some research and clear thought about your aspirations. One thing you will learn very quickly is that without a logical and methodical regime with film and development choices, you are guaranteed nothing but frustrating and potentially very expensive disappointment. I say all this, not to ridicule you, but to encourage you to start from the beginning logically and go forward with a better chance of success.

 

I would advise you to begin by assembling a basic film processing kit and a film scanner. With a little shopping around on the Internet, it won't break the bank and you will be on a more informative and more rewarding learning curve without distracting yourself with irrelevant questions about lens choices. 250swb has advised you to start with more forgiving emulsions such as FP4 or Delta 100 and I agree, you will learn far more than throwing yourself into the deep end with a specialist emulsion such as CMS and no idea of what to do with it.. Once you have acquired enough experience, and this will come quickly with a logical approach, you will be able to make informed decisions about film and developer choices, and more importantly, whether you even want to continue with film photography.

 

You may find that film photography just not for you, you need to approach this with an open mind and understand from the outset that your scans will look nothing like the images you are used to seeing from your current equipment. It would be rather silly to start by throwing money at an ALC MP until you have gained some practical knowledge and skills with film photography. On the other hand, you may go on to discover why film photography is so absorbing. I really hope you do, but right now you need to stop and turn around 180 degrees and think carefully about moving forward instead of going backward from the start.

Edited August 31, 2014 by honcho

[CalArts 99]

My backwards journey into photography has finally reached the shores of film

 

 

I did buy 10 rolls of ADOX CMS 20

 

 

You may have "reached the shores" but good luck getting out of the boat..... you've already made the wrong film choice.

Please do heed what others have said.

 

And p.s., also forget your concerns about which lenses to use; that's like the cart before the horse sort of thinking. This isn't a lens question (and the thread probably should be in the film section.....)

Edited August 31, 2014 by CalArts 99

[NJH]

The problem you will have even if you did manage to get well exposed sharp negatives with CMS20 is what do you do next with them?

 

I managed to get myself a Minolta 5400 scanner, its showing me all sorts of problems with trying to get the most out of 35mm film. That depth of field you thought was enough wasn't, the shutter speeds have to be kept high to avoid camera shake (pushing things the other way to low or even medium speed film). Then the scanner can't get the whole frame sharp because the film isn't perfectly flat in the holder so you have to trade either a tack sharp at 5400 dpi central target for a reasonably sharp whole frame. Then I also found that the tiny fine grain is still more as a result of the scanning then inherent to the film. It quickly becomes rather fruitless neigh pointless in the greater scheme of things, a sort of why I am wasting my time on this nonsense when I have 50 to 60 images in a backlog to work on.

 

Honestly I think CMS20 is only for use on a tripod, developed in its special developer and enlarged using the very best optical enlargement in a traditional darkroom. Further than that my own experience with Acros is that here in the UK at least it is much easier to get consistently sharp high resolution results with Tmax 400 because the small increase in grain is offset by 2 more stops, very useful to keep the shutter speed high and the lens stopped down. Therefore if you were looking for a fine grain film to get the high image quality in the 'digital' sense I would start with Tmax 400.

 

Personally I got used to seeing grain and don't find it objectionable any more so I prefer the more traditional films for how they look.

[Theodor Heinrichsohn]

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The problem you will have even if you did manage to get well exposed sharp negatives with CMS20 is what do you do next with them?

 

I managed to get myself a Minolta 5400 scanner, its showing me all sorts of problems with trying to get the most out of 35mm film. That depth of field you thought was enough wasn't, the shutter speeds have to be kept high to avoid camera shake (pushing things the other way to low or even medium speed film). Then the scanner can't get the whole frame sharp because the film isn't perfectly flat in the holder so you have to trade either a tack sharp at 5400 dpi central target for a reasonably sharp whole frame. Then I also found that the tiny fine grain is still more as a result of the scanning then inherent to the film. It quickly becomes rather fruitless neigh pointless in the greater scheme of things, a sort of why I am wasting my time on this nonsense when I have 50 to 60 images in a backlog to work on.

 

Honestly I think CMS20 is only for use on a tripod, developed in its special developer and enlarged using the very best optical enlargement in a traditional darkroom. Further than that my own experience with Acros is that here in the UK at least it is much easier to get consistently sharp high resolution results with Tmax 400 because the small increase in grain is offset by 2 more stops, very useful to keep the shutter speed high and the lens stopped down. Therefore if you were looking for a fine grain film to get the high image quality in the 'digital' sense I would start with Tmax 400.

 

Personally I got used to seeing grain and don't find it objectionable any more so I prefer the more traditional films for how they look.

 

Having graduated from from Super XX to Panatomic X, Kodak Technical Pan and Spur films with special developers, I very much agree with the above post.

I gave up film because I was not able to continue to develop and enlarge myself (Nikor stainless stell tanks, Leitz 35mm/6x9 enlarger Focomat II with two Focotar lenses) because

of environmental problems with films and paper processing due to Germany's strict environmental regulations.

In my opinion, exposing any b&w film means at least developing it yourself. I have no experience with scanners and can't comment on that aspect. I am sure that you will not be satisfied with developing and printing in a lab, quite apart from the very high costs involved for high quality results.

Maybe you could look into WhiteWall on the internet. I have used them for making color prints but not b&w. I am reasonably sure they make b&w prints from film negatives. I don't think that you can obtain good results at an acceptable cost without developing your own films.

Teddy

[Steve Ash]

I use CMS20 quiet alot. I disagree on the claim that you need a tripod. When you want to shoot your summilux or noctilux wide open on a sunny day, you will need a ND filter due to the limited shutter speed nonetheless.

 

As an example the following shots needed an ND filter

 

 

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Regards,

Steve

[jankap]

Beautiful pictures, Steve.

Those will not brake the Particle, I fear.

Jan

[NJH]

Lets get back to the start, why CMS 20?

[Stealth3kpl]

I know nothing of CMS 20. What has attracted you to it?

 

I think all your lenses were designed in the film era. They'll be fine.

Pete

[bephoto]

Adox CMS 20 is good for a scanner based workflow, you need to have Hassy X1/X5 or some other really high end scanners in your workflow to be able to enjoy that film.

latitude of CMS is phenomenal even pushed 2 stops,

 

BTW very bad choice if you are new to analogue and don't even try to use it for street photography or anything handheld, you have to treat it as if you are shooting 8x10" film in a view camera. its just a waste of film for anything moving faster than 1mm per hour. In studio with flash is what I have found great use for CMS and for architecture when M7 is mounted on a Systematic series 5 tripod.

Its also great for long exposure landscapes. screw a red25 on and you are at ISO 2.5 and @f/16 you can sit back and enjoy your whiskey while exposing.

 

PS You can also develop it in Rodinal/Adonal, gets a bit contrasty but still great.

Edited August 31, 2014 by bephoto

[Stealth3kpl]

you can sit back and enjoy your whiskey

 

What a good idea. I think I will.

Pete

[DigitalHeMan]

To add to what everyone else has said, I started my Leica journey with an M6 before buying into the digital lifecycle. At the time I had one lens - a 35mm Summarit - and started with a combination of Portra for color, and Ilford XP2 for black and white. Despite having bought a lot more Leica gear since then, I still take the M6 and Summarit with me on business trips when I want to keep it simple.

 

Reason I chose the two above mentioned films - they both use the C41 process which means they can be sent to any place that still offers film processing, and you can pretty much be guaranteed of good results, assuming they were exposed well in the first place.

 

Of course there are other films that are more suitable for home processing - FP4 and Delta 100 have both been mentioned, and I used to love HP5 + 20 years ago when I was shooting at college, but this requires the time and space to be able to dedicate a darkroom with a wet space for developing the images. As much as I would love to get back into that, I just don't have the space, so I took the easy route and stayed with C41. Note that if you do use non C41 process black and white films, and don't develop them at home, you will need to find a specialist lab to do the developing - and these are not as wide spread as they used to be.

 

Many labs today will offer a scan to CD service, but this is often at a fairly low resolution. You may quickly find that you want to buy a scanner so that you can get higher resolution files from your negatives. For this the Plustek OpticFilm series are very well priced (I have the 8200i), and used together with VueScan software can deliver very nice results.

 

As others have mentioned, I would save the CMS for later, and purchase either some Portra or XP2. At least then you will have removed one variable from the equation as you familiarise yourself with film shooting.

[LarsAC]

Also, any good processing labs you can recommend? I'm 45 min south of Frankfurt am Main, don't mind posting long distance and having to wait for awhile. I want postcard sized prints, poster sized prints as well as scans onto a DVD/BRay disc

 

The film needs a special developer (Adotech). You can send it to fotoimpex in Berlin or, from what I read on the net, to photo studio 13. In the latter case you have to send some Adotech developer along with the film.

 

Lars

[robert_parker]

My backwards journey into photography has finally reached the shores of film

 

A film camera is being acquired (M6 or M7 and maybe add one a la carte MP at a later stage)

 

I did buy 10 rolls of ADOX CMS 20 - this film is the primary reason I'm foraying into the analogue world and I do understand it's not the easiest of the lot to start with

 

Question is - since I don't have a film background, what lenses would you guys typically use for this film? I know the development process does play a role too but would you go for the current high contrast APO ASPH lenses or rather the more classic lenses with low/medium contrast?

 

I intend the use the SA21/3.4 + canon 35/1.8 LTM + 75/1.4 + 90 pre-ASPH + 135/4 combo

 

Also, any good processing labs you can recommend? I'm 45 min south of Frankfurt am Main, don't mind posting long distance and having to wait for awhile. I want postcard sized prints, poster sized prints as well as scans onto a DVD/BRay disc

 

Thank you for the help,

Hari

 

Fantastic - photography is about the soul, not about logical progression - if CMS 20 does something for you, you will be able to achieve something special with it (really enjoy your interesting and creative photos by the way). It's all about going where the challenge, interest and creative urge takes you.

 

It has a latitude from 3 to 80 so you have some room to manoeuvre during the try out stages.

 

This shop offers a develop and process service as well as scanning but is in London, so you would have to enquire as to whether it would be ok for your purposes.

 

West End Cameras Film Processing

 

You can get the specialist developer from eBay if you want to have a go yourself.

 

In terms of lens choice the film will render what is there, i.e. a contrasty lens will look contrasty, a smoother style lens smoother, etc.

 

If you do happen to screw up a few frames or the odd film as you get used to it, that's part of the process.

 

Have fun and looking forward to seeing some results.

[stephen.w]

I would give Ilford's PanF Plus a try.

[honcho]

?.....photography is about the soul, not about logical progression....... It's all about going where the challenge, interest and creative urge takes you.........

 

 

Until you tip the fix into the tank before the dev, of course. At that point, Doris Day no longer sings, the rain is torrential and Bambi and the bluebirds have all buggered off to a nicer place.

Edited September 2, 2014 by honcho

[robert_parker]

 

Until you tip the fix into the tank before the dev, of course. At that point, Doris Day no longer sings, the rain is torrential and Bambi and the bluebirds have all buggered off to a nicer place.

 

Those are two of my favourite things.......and things that you have to overcome if you want the result........or you can send the film off and pay someone else to process it for you, of course ).

Edited September 2, 2014 by robert_parker

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[IkarusJohn]

I did buy 10 rolls of ADOX CMS 20 - this film is the primary reason I'm foraying into the analogue world and I do understand it's not the easiest of the lot to start with

 

Go for it, and have fun.

 

The thing with film is ... it's just film after all. Sure, it's ISO 20, and that will slow you down. It does have some latitude, if you wish to push it. I would take some of the words of warning above with a grain of salt - the right exposure at ISO 20 is the right exposure, regardless of the make of film. I love using slow films (having been raised on Kodachrome 64 as a fast film, I have great fun with Kodachrome 25, and I am currently using Velvia 50 in my SWC - at least, I would be if the shutter wasn't jammed). What really counts (as Steve Ash shows with his shots above) is that CMS 20 is just another film - expose it right, and hopefully you'll get some interesting results.

 

I suspect what you will soon find, though, is that workflow is more complex and more unforgiving than you might have expected. You will find this frustrating whatever film you use, until you're used to it. CMS requires the use of Adotech (I order it with the film), and you need to get into the habit of getting time, temperature and workflow right. Once you have processed your film, you need to make sure it has no water marks and is clean, then you need to decide what to do with it. Send it to Whitewall (I've had fantastic results from them using my Monochrom), or scan it yourself? I tend to scan my negatives myself, at the highest resolution I can - this often means that I will scan and rescan slides and negatives many times until I am happy with them.

 

To my mind, this is the biggest difference between digital and film. I use CMS in my M3 and Velvia in my SWC (not sure why, but that's what I do). As neither camera has any electronic aids, this gives me total control - and is slows me waaaay down. Composition, framing, light readings, exposure, bracketing (just to be sure), focussing and refocussing - it all takes time. Then there is developing the film carefully and correctly, followed by scanning and post processing. If you work carefully and methodically through the processing, I don't see why you should have too much of a problem.

 

After all that effort, you will be looking for that image that's worth printing. Wandering out for a bit of street photography, then whacking your SD card into your computer to see what you have - this isn't; though I don't see why you wouldn't give a bit of street photography a go. Before you start snapping, take a light reading, think about the contrast and what blacks you want etc, and try zone focussing - it might work for you (it doesn't for me).

 

I wouldn't worry about lenses - just try out what you have, and have fun.