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benedict297

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Hi, I'm thinking of trying out film and I have a rather basic question. For film cameras one is not able to change the ISO of the film while shooting but I was reading something like how Ilford 3200 is really 1600 and you shouldn’t shoot it at 3200. What does that mean?

 

I'm under the impression that in a film camera, the type of film chosen has its ISO already pre-set. So if I am metering, I would set the ISO at say in this case at 3200 and adjust my shutter speed and aperture accordingly. But I don't understand the statement of not shooting at 3200.

 

Thanks

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Hi,

 

Some people prefer to rate certain films differently to the indicated ISO. It's common to push a film, i.e. Rate a 400 ISO film as 800, less common to pull, i.e. use a lower ISO. Compensation is usually made in development of the film. Also some film/developer combinations work best at certain ISO's depending on the type of result you want, fine grain, fast speed, high contrast etc.

 

As you're new to film, and I guess you won't be developing the film yourself, I'd suggest you stick to the nominated ISO and leave the intricacies of push/pull processing for now.

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Congrats on trying film. Now there's no turning back :)

 

While Ilford has 3200 on the box, they actually say in their techno sheet that the film is EI 3200, as in exposure index 3200, meaning that the actual rated ISO speed of the film is different. Delta 3200 "has an ISO speed rating of ISO 1000/31º (1000ASA, 31DIN) to daylight."

 

But it's a film with pretty extreme exposure latitude. Here's what Ilford says about how to rate the film when you shoot it:

The recommended meter setting for DELTA 3200 DELTA 3200 Professional is EI 3200/36, but good image quality can also be obtained at meter settings from EI 400/27 to EI 6400/39. It can be used in all types of lighting.

 

DELTA 3200 Professional is particularly recommended for exposing in the range EI 1600/33 to EI 6400/39. It can be exposed at ratings up to EI 25000/45, but it is important to make test exposures first to ensure the results will be suitable for the intended purpose.

 

It all depends on what images you want but if you set the camera for somewhere between 1000-1600 you should be fine. Higher will give you more pronounced grain.

Edited by philipus
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Many people who use film like to do exposure tests with varying ISO ratings and development procedures. That way they can arrive at the 'correct' film ISO depending on their meter/camera's exposure and development processes. The 'problem' with roll film is that you have to develop the entire roll. It's only with sheet film (with individual sheets and film holders) that you can 'change the ISO' with each shot like with a digital camera.

 

If you're not developing your own film, then do what James suggests. Start with the stated box speed and have it developed. If you find it's too thin (or too dense) then change the ISO setting on your meter/camera accordingly but have it developed the same way and at the same shop. You might have to use a few rolls until you find what suits you and your own camera/exposure meter, etc.. You also might consider only using one or two films (a 'slow' film and a 'faster' film) to get the feel for them and stick with them for a while before experimenting further with other emulsions.

 

That all said, modern negative films have a pretty good latitude for exposure and you should be fine when using the box speed for most all films.

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+1 ...... I tend to pull color film, portra, a 1/2 stop -- shoot portra 160 at 120 BUT, as Calarts99 says, the developer develops at the box iso of 160....have fun, this is not life and death it is about experimenting, enjoying, and finding out what you like and don't -- generally and about different films....

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I've got a roll of delta 3200 in my camera now, and Im shooting it at 3200. I chose it for indoor pix of family for day and night time exposures, and it let me use the apertures I wanted (around F 4) at speeds that are no problem without a tripod, and for moving todlers.

 

I'll get back to you on how it turns out.

 

Welcome to film. And to the dark (and light) side that is B&W.

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Sblitz,

 

My limited exposure to portra 160 (heh heh), just one roll, was really disappointing. Bland, undersaturated colours, I thought. Might have been all me--it was my first roll in 20 years or so, and my first time out with a Leica.

 

If I were to pull 160 to 120, this would overexpose, right? Unless compensatory development times off set that.

 

Can you comment on what your getting from the "pull" here? Sorry if this is diverting the topic just a bit.

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well that is the joy of film ….. by pulling portra comes out a bit pastel like. if you like something different, calarts99 has noted fuji color reversal film as something a bit stronger and there is ektar 100, but you need to make sure the exposure is just right. i am also experimenting with kodak color movie film repackaged by a company in LA (there is a thread around here somewhere)….. i happen to like that look of portra. there is on the internet a lot of people who have written what the true iso of certain films are -- shoot at that but develop at the box speed. i could go on and on, and most on this forum know more than i do…..

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One can always boost the saturation in PP if you scan. Its funny because I had a play with an image the other night and boosting the shadows and saturation made the grass look not a million miles from my M8.

 

Portra and certain other films like Ilford XP2 have huge latitude. I shot my first roll of Portra 400 at 800 ISO, standard C41 processing and it came out great just a tad grainy (better than the colour output from the M8 at 640 IMHO). XP2 less good at 800 I reckon but I shot the last roll as a mixture of 200, 400 and 800 and it all came out OK, the shots at 200 outdoors were my favourites though in technical terms, 800 looks muddy to me on that film.

 

This weekend I promise to get some shots onto flickr.

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(...)Delta 3200 "has an ISO speed rating of ISO 1000/31º (1000ASA, 31DIN) to daylight." (...)

 

I've read such statements over and over the internet again and would like to ask, what the "true" rating of a film is.

 

In my understanding, I can use more exposure (lower ISO setting) and compensate by shorter/more diluted development. In this case, I have effectively less speed but more dynamic range. I use this pulling technique regularly to avoid to test the maximum dynamic range of my film scanner.

 

On the other hand, I can use a higher ISO setting meaning less exposure and compensate with longer development, I push the film. I gain sensitivity in low light but trade in dynamic range.

 

Is the "true" ISO rating of a film, which gives a certain amount of dynamic range?

 

Stefan

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"Exposure controls density and development controls contrast" is an old adage that still holds true (nothing's changed other than producing a type of negative that is more conducive for scanning, if indeed one is scanning; negatives for projecting onto printing paper are normally often exposed and developed differently.)

 

It's not about pushing or pulling film (that's something else one can do, too.) The stated ISO (on the box label, and what was once in the very detailed data sheet that used to come in every film box), should be considered as a 'recommended starting point' by the manufacturer. Every exposure meter, camera shutter, etc., is going to be slightly different and that's why people normally test for their 'own personal film speed' (along with development procedures; agitation, time/temperature.) Plus every one's need for a type of negative will be different (low contrast/high contrast, high density/low density, etc..)

 

But again, with modern emulsions the latitude is quite good and so most people will be fine with the stated ISO recommendations by the manufacturer. But one normally still tests (or at least observes) exposure for shadow density and development parameters for highlight contrast, etc..

 

e.g., I used to expose Tri-X at either 320 or 200 for more density. Development would depend on the scene contrast (and this is why sheet film use is better for 'zone system' photography; you can develop individually.) But these days I'm scanning and so I prefer a less dense and 'flatter' negative. Exposure and development is done accordingly. Exposing at the 400 box speed and the appropriate development (sometimes less agitation for less contrast depending on the subject/scene) often works better for my scanning. One needs to figure out their own parameters (it's why individual and personal film ISO testing was a thing we all used to do, or still do; each negative might need to be different depending on all the factors desired, etc..)

 

Here's one method: Personalizing Your Film Speed, Part 1

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The speed that a manufacturer puts on the film box is ISO, the speed that the photographer decides to shoot it at is Exposure Index or EI. When film is tested for its ISO, the manufacturer tests under controlled conditions with calibrated equipment for exposure and development as determined by the ISO standard. As a photographer when you expose and process your film you are not using the film under the same controlled conditions that were used when the film is tested by the manufacturer. Because of the differences you should test every film type to see what gives you the best results for your technique and equipment. You may find that for your methods the film has to be exposed at a speed that is different than what the manufacturer determined was its ISO rating. The speed at which you decide to expose your film speed at is called Exposure Index or EI.

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Wow, looks like there's a lot if interested people in film!

 

I have another question. Once you shoot a roll, how long can you keep the unexposed film for before processing? I've shot 2 rolls and currently keeping them in a dry cabinet (is that ok?) with all my camera gear.

 

The reason I ask is because I would like to try ilfords printing lab service in the UK. As I live in Asia it's more beneficial to send multiple rolls at one time. The cost if done so works out to be about the same if I were to get them processed and printed in Singapore.

 

Thanks

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(...)

Here's one method: Personalizing Your Film Speed, Part 1

 

Thank you for the input, I think I got the point. So the "true" speed of a film is the speed one gets for one's individual development and printing process.

 

The text behind the link, also part 2, are excellent, by the way.

 

Thinking about it, colour slide film is almost easier to handle compared to black-and-white negative: if one is slightly off the mark with slides, it will be visible immediately. However, I'm suspecting my way of processing black-and-white films is slightly off, but I won't notice it, since the results are "good" but could be still better.

 

Stefan

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I have another question. Once you shoot a roll, how long can you keep the unexposed film for before processing? I've shot 2 rolls and currently keeping them in a dry cabinet (is that ok?) with all my camera gear.

 

You can keep exposed unprocessed black and white film for years before noticable degradation occurs. If you are not going to processes immediatly store your film in the original plastic container and place in the refridgerator. Take the film out a few hours before processesing and do not open the plastic container until the film warms to room temperature to prevent condensation from forming on the film.

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As others have said, the ISO rating on the box is the manufacturer's 'official' speed rating, which is determined under specific conditions. The actual speed you should use does depend (slightly) on variations in equipment, but more significantly on how you use the meter (hand-held or built-in to your camera).

 

For example, if your camera has 'centre-weighted' metering, most of the light for metering is taken from the central area of the image. For the unwary, a common problem arises when the area contains a lot of sky but you really want detail in the foreground - the result is underexposure of the foreground, but the sky may well be fine. You can see how the camera is metering the scene by pointing the camera up or down from the desired position and watching how the exposure changes in the viewfinder or wherever it's shown (usually it's the shutter speed which changes if you've pre-set the aperture).

 

With negative film, it's safer to overexpose than to underexpose. The opposite for colour-reversal (slide / transparency) film, though when using this type it's also common to 'bracket' exposures, too (i.e. take the first shot at what you think is correct, then take 2 more, one, say, ½-stop under, one ½-stop over). Film is cheap...

 

In the early days of getting used to all this, it's helpful to take a notebook and record the relevant exposure method and details and refer to this when you see the results.

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IIs the "true" ISO rating of a film, which gives a certain amount of dynamic range?

 

I hate to complicate the issue, but a film's sensitivity and dynamic range also depends upon the color of the light. I can return to this point if anyone is interested.

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