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Leica M Digital Conversion


ezrahilyer

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I know that this thought has been beaten almost to death, and that there have been several attempts to accomplish this, but I would like to gauge interest in a Leica M* conversion.

 

With the new M9, the advances in sensor technology is apparent, and especially with the new Kodak full frame sensors (and micro-lenses to prevent falloff at the edges of the sensor) doing a full-frame Leica M conversion seems to be a possibility.

 

To the extent that I am investing a great deal of time and energy to develop a prototype. I will be using 16 megapixel full-frame Kodak sensors.

 

The product is intended not to be simply a digital back; as there is not really enough room to install all the electronics in the small back door of the M camera, this would be a conversion kit. There would be a new rear door that would house the CCD, and the rear LCD display. Also the bottom film load would be replaced with battery housing/SD card slot, and a processor in the take-up side.

 

These conversions would be intended to be done in-house at first, and then perhaps a kit would be made available for those who would prefer to do it themselves.

 

There would be no modification done to the camera itself, so that the conversion would be fully reversible, and upgradeable.

 

(This is not an offer to sell, it is merely an attempt to gauge interest, and demand before I pour more of my $$ into the project.)

 

 

My questions for you:

 

1: What is an acceptable target price to be a reasonably affordable alternative to the M9? Keep in mind, that the sensors alone will be nearly $1000 each from Kodak.

 

2: Would a lower priced product using a cropped sensor (like the M8) be desired?

 

3: What feature requests do you have?

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Wow - this is back from the dead...

 

I can't imagine this would ever be commercially viable, given that second hand M9's will probably be selling for $3000 by the time you could make it work.

 

It would be cool, no doubt - and it would make a great personal project.. but I don't think you should expect to even remotely recoup costs.

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As I said on a lesser forum elsewhere,

 

How would you:

 

Communicate shutter release?

Handle shutter cocking?

Communicate ISO?

Communicate aperture?

Communicate metering?

 

How and where will you set ISO?

How and where will you set white balance?

How and where will you indicate number of shots?

How will you format an SD card? Review and delete images when out and about?

How will you set date and time for exif?

If you use a CMOS sensor, how will you dissipate the heat generated?

 

I'd love to see it, but...

 

Regards,

 

Bill

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I can't say anything about the pricing. Unless the product had a perceivable advantage over other products already established in their respective markets, it had to be not much more than the prices for used ones.

 

One thing I would love to own is an M body with a Foveon sensor, crop or no crop.

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As I said on a lesser forum elsewhere,

 

How would you:

 

Communicate shutter release?

Not a problem with "proper" Ms that have FP synch as well as X. Not so good with later ones.

Handle shutter cocking?

With the wind lever?

Communicate ISO?

A dial on the back seems like a good idea;)

Communicate aperture?

Communicate metering?

Not an issue, the camera doesn't have a meter and EXIF data is only for soft southern photographers

How and where will you set ISO?

See above.

How and where will you set white balance?

I think there'll have to be a new baseplate to hold the electronics and SD card, so there'll be a space for some controls.

How and where will you indicate number of shots?

Use the film counter. The electronics will only store 36 exposures on a card, and the counter resets every time you open the baseplate to change the card.:D

How will you format an SD card? Review and delete images when out and about?

In the computer. And real men don't chimp. :)

How will you set date and time for exif?

Exif is for wimps.

If you use a CMOS sensor, how will you dissipate the heat generated?

Same way as in the M8 and M9. In fact with no LCD there'll be less heat to dissipate and a shorter path to the ambient.

I'd love to see it, but...

 

...me too.

 

A more valid objection seems to me to be the mismatch between the cloth shutter and the sensitivity of available sensors. If the base sensitivity is ISO 160 and the shortest exposure is 1/1000 there will be a lot of disappointed DOF fetishists. Likewise the 1/50 synch speed and ISO 160 makes fill-in flash in bright light problematic (though real men carry a pair of Metz 60s just in case:eek:). "Pulling" sensitivity by two or three stops to EI 32 or so just reduces the dynamic range.

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Years ago, I had mused about being able to put bare minimum digital components into the shape of a 35mm roll of film. A tip of the 'film' would serve as the sensor, sticking out into the exposed area. This of course would mean that you would need a sensor as thin as film or that you would have to replace the back of the camera. But wouldn't it be cool to be able to use any old camera as a digital?

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Years ago, I had mused about being able to put bare minimum digital components into the shape of a 35mm roll of film. A tip of the 'film' would serve as the sensor, sticking out into the exposed area. This of course would mean that you would need a sensor as thin as film or that you would have to replace the back of the camera. But wouldn't it be cool to be able to use any old camera as a digital?

 

Several years ago, at one of the photo shows (PMA?), some company showed a little digital sensor and electronics that would drop into the film chamber of some 35mm cameras. I believe the sensor was about 2 megs. They even had a working prototype that produced a passable picture. The concept went nowhere and the company folded.

 

Jim B.

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I suspect that this thread is about as far as this idea will get, but are Kodak sensors with the correct microlenses available for just anyone to buy, or are they patented and a Leica special? Without them, you're on a hiding to nothing

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My questions for you:

 

1: What is an acceptable target price to be a reasonably affordable alternative to the M9? Keep in mind, that the sensors alone will be nearly $1000 each from Kodak.

 

Bearing in mind it's not a Leica conversion and that an M8 with warranty can be had on the used market and on the understanding that your product had proven reliability - I'd say about £500 max on top of an existing M6 body. That's providing the M6 modifications could be reversed to recover that cost component.

 

I'm sure that will be disappointing, but there's too much risk for me, not only in the gear, but in the lost opportunity, whether it be a a client shoot, or a ruined holiday.

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I suggest we don't start thinking from the features of a point and shoot digital camera, but from an M :). all you need is to set ISO and to know approximately how many shots you have left. as with film, white balance etc. are unnecessary if the camera creates DNGs. anything else can be done in post production.

if you want to be even more puristic: how about setting ISO via some simple PC/Mac software (USB connection) before leaving for a trip, just like inserting a roll of film? …no necessity for an lcd at all.

image review for immediate check is nice but not necessary. how about an external lcd unit, linked via a cable (again usb? or perhaps an iPhone applet? which could also be used to set ISO etc.) and pocketable?: you decide if you need to take it along or not. I would often prefer my M8 to be as thin as an M6 at the cost of the rear LCD.

with SD cards holding 200+ DNGs - who needs to erase?

minimum ISO 160: why not use an ND filter then? I often do on my M6.

metering would have to work, I agree.

 

just those crappy kodak ccds - isn't there an alternative? more detail sharpness and less noise. I never understood how Leica could put one of these behind what are considered the best lenses available. Canon's sensors (not freely available, I know) are two generations ahead of Kodak, Sony perhaps one (what comes out of the M9 looks a bit like my old 1D MarkII files).

 

I would not consider it a cheap M8/9 alternative but a way to use my M6 digitally: the perfect body (as opposed to the ill-formed M8), the silent shutter, the option of exchanging the ccd in some years while maintaining the camera. and thus the option of ordering an à-la-carte camera without it being outdated in two years... I'd therefore be prepared to spend something around the price of a new canon slr (the cheaper alternative to an M9 when used with R lenses), given the IQ (of the chip) equals or surpasses the M8/9. thus, roughly around 2 000 euros.

 

without a rear LCD, wouldn't it be possible to fit the ccd into a standard M back (exchangeable but with the same outer dimensions: the inner back plate holding the film in place protrudes quite a lot)? and to fit an SD card writer to the place of the film can? perhaps MicroSD is an option. it's capacities may even allow for the proper use of the M's frame counter...

how much file processing is needed in-camera? if it makes things easier (less space-consuming), couldn't the camera software just write "real" raw data from the sensor which would then have to be converted to DNG files on a PC/Mac?

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Ijust those crappy kodak ccds - isn't there an alternative? more detail sharpness and less noise. I never understood how Leica could put one of these behind what are considered the best lenses available.

 

My M8 produces sharper images than the Canon 5D that I used have. That's one of the reasons why I sold the Canon.

 

There is as much chance of this project coming to market as there is of Ireland winning the next world cup.

 

Dream on by all means, but sometimes reality has to be taken into account.

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So much negativity here...

 

If you can do it, good luck to you. If it's commercially viable, the better for you and everyone (except Leica).

 

My answers for you:

 

1: What is an acceptable target price to be a reasonably affordable alternative to the M9? Keep in mind, that the sensors alone will be nearly $1000 each from Kodak.

 

Depending on when it's avail, I'd be prepared to pay for cost of sensor/materials + 30% for your troubles.

 

2: Would a lower priced product using a cropped sensor (like the M8) be desired?

 

No. For me, doing this sort of thing is something a "purist" would do. Hence, only a FF would interest me.

 

3: What feature requests do you have?.

 

None. Just a digital replacement for film. Make "features" configurable through a USB connection. I'd be happy with not being able to change ISO when away from the computer :). Just don't make the end result contributing to additional size/bulk to the original camera.

 

Good luck with it. All great inventions face skepticism and negativity in the beginning (otherwise, everyone else would have done it already).

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I'd say less than 3,000 for sure, the closer you get to $2,000 the more likely people would be interested. If you can get it to less than $2K you'd have a winner...

but at this point people expect and desire full frame, otherwise why not just get a used M8?

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  • 2 weeks later...

I would most definitely be interested, providing the conversion provided for quality image capture and cost effective. I have two M6 bodies at this time. I would love to get the M9 body, or even the M8/M8.2 but the economic times are tough. The full frame receptor would be a great option for one of my bodies. I would prefer the full frame option over the reduced size of the M8/M8.2. The ability to move from digital to film and back would be a great feature too. I love my film cameras. Of course, to state the obvious: I love my leica M glass. I still have faith in the artistic value of film. I also realize that digital has come a long way. I have a 14MP Kodak digital SLR that used nikon lenses. I can only image the quality of a full frame image using the leica optics on a Leica rangefinder. I would jump at the chance to have one of my M6's converted for digital use. mljcab1

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Without the proprietary micro-lenses incorporated in the Leica digital M sensors (ie, the M8 & M9), one will be severely limited in lens selection for such a project. This was one of the major hurdles Leica had to overcome and why, I believe, Leica once stated that a digital M was not possible.

 

Otherwise one limits the project to only retrofocus wide angles and must still incorporate heavy corner correction, either in camera through a more involved processor, or in post such as with a process like Corner Fix. Then one will have to find a software engineer to write code for the vignetting repair issue.

 

The physical adaption of a digital back to a M6 or M7 is not impossible. Years ago both the Nikon N90 and the Canon EOS 1D were adapted by Kodak for digital. These were permanent modifications, neither were reversible. Additionally, both native cameras had extensive use of electronics on board including external interface connect points. Leica film M bodies would be at a distinct disadvantage in this respect.

 

The CMOS sensor would likely be the wrong direction to go, a CCD can be switched on and off to emulate timed shutter actuation, via the Leica M PC flash sync plug. As such some form of dedicated flash sync setting might actually boost the sync speed to as much as 1/250 or 1/500 even if the body is physically set to 1/50 so as to have the entire shutter open at once. Actually, it might be easiest to permanently limit the body's top speed to 1/50 and control shutter speed electronically via turning on and off the CCD.

 

I could imaging something no smaller than a NC2000 and quite likely larger for a working example given the practical limit of design engineering available for such an endeavor. Such a project should be based on a version of the M6 or M7 that already had a recent thorough CLA.

 

Finally the issue of expense, this would have to be brought to market at a point somewhat less than a good user M8. There exists a potential for a competitor for the M9 if only to further drive the market and stimulate additional development. I don't see a digital back for a film M body as a viable consideration.

 

The Wright Brothers, though scoffed at, were not satisfied with anything but success. And but 44 years after their first flight Mach 1 was deliberately broken in level flight and but 66 years later Man walked on the Moon. All was accomplished not by market forces but by idealistic engineering goals. The advances beyond the Wright Brothers initial efforts were financed by national interests with goals of military advantages and national pride.

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  • 4 years later...

Hi,

 

I just recently finished a similar project with a Konica Auto S3 and wrote it up at,

 

FrankenCamera | Fitting digital camera components into an analog rangefinder.

 

I really want to do a REVERSIBLE and easier conversion on a Leica M3, and I think it's possible. I would also like to use an A7 sensor, Unfortunately I don't have either camera or the money to buy them, do you have any suggestions as how to get funding?

 

Many thanks,

Ollie Baker

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